Mum needs help and my hands are tied.
- Thread starter Alora
- Start date
I have been thinking about your predicament with your brother and was wondering whether it might help if you confided in Social Services, or her GP, that you are very concerned about your mum and her lack of care, but although you are also an attorney, you are afraid of your brother and would find it very difficult to go against him.
Others might be able to say whether this may help or not, but I thought it might spur SS into action.
Either way, I wouldnt do anything till after the GP has visited
Others might be able to say whether this may help or not, but I thought it might spur SS into action.
Either way, I wouldnt do anything till after the GP has visited
Thanks Canary - thats A great idea. I guess I am a little wary of him although I really don’t care if our relationship failed because of this. I just want to make Mums life easier and safer. - even if she doesn’t want it!
My brother and me are at opposite ends of the spectrum and we need to meet in the middle as well as including Mum in the decison msking process as much as possible. My brother is firmly on mum’s side for reasons I’ll never know.
There are two other options if we can’t agree on spending money on care after the go/SS have come to a decision:
1). Mediation - although how we do this ive no idea. - perhaps with a social worker as a referee? we would have to pay but it’s one way of resolving this for good. What do you think Cansry?
2). Another nuclear solution if we (as attorneys) can’t agree then we dismantle the LPA and appoint a deputy from the court of protection. Again expensive but it takes out of an emotional environment of the family.
This all a bit drastic and my MAY relent under pressure from a professional although a very senior social worker gave up.
We (Mum, my brother and me) have tried talking as a family but it’s been a disaster. My brother puts closed questions to Mum and she says yes or no. If I try to say anything I’m told I’m not helping. It really is 2 against 1.
My brother and me are at opposite ends of the spectrum and we need to meet in the middle as well as including Mum in the decison msking process as much as possible. My brother is firmly on mum’s side for reasons I’ll never know.
There are two other options if we can’t agree on spending money on care after the go/SS have come to a decision:
1). Mediation - although how we do this ive no idea. - perhaps with a social worker as a referee? we would have to pay but it’s one way of resolving this for good. What do you think Cansry?
2). Another nuclear solution if we (as attorneys) can’t agree then we dismantle the LPA and appoint a deputy from the court of protection. Again expensive but it takes out of an emotional environment of the family.
This all a bit drastic and my MAY relent under pressure from a professional although a very senior social worker gave up.
We (Mum, my brother and me) have tried talking as a family but it’s been a disaster. My brother puts closed questions to Mum and she says yes or no. If I try to say anything I’m told I’m not helping. It really is 2 against 1.
I’m moving back to the county where mum lives to a 3 bedroomEd bungalow and I had thought of suggesting mu m move in with me with some outside help. it means I can look after her but she will have lose her beloved bungalow. She’d have her own bedroom, bathroom and sitting room. Maybe that would be a solution.
Dad was ill with cancer and had a poor prognosis. Brothers wife is a nurse and would advise my brother on what treatment dad should have or not have. She decided that because dad was very ill and elderly that my dad should not have any treatment other than morphine patches and my brother agreed. Dad was offered a stent so that he could eat, they said no he should not have it. We actually argued about it.
I took the advice of dads oncologist and dad had the stent, in fact he had 3 stents over two years and lived very well and far exceeded his prognosis. They were also against any palliative radiotherapy if offered. He didn't need it in the end but if he did and it had been offered it then he would have had it, I would have made sure of that. Thinking about it now, it is possible that my SIL has some kind of personality disorder because her advice was not rational, it wasn't normal.
When it became clear that dad was deteriorating her advice was to 'get his pacemaker switched off' I won't say what I said. What I couldn't understand was why my brother backed her up all the time.
This is what I was up against and it was inevitable that we would fall out. You can only put up with so much.
you certsinly didnt need that Duggies’ girl, especially when your dad was so ill. You just needed support to make your dad comfortable and your brother seen that. He was your dad. She sounds AWFUL.
My brother’s wife is one of those quiet ones who have a lot to say in the background but withdrawn with mum and me.
My brother and me had a discussion/argument about psy9ng mum’s bills or looking after if anything happened to him (he’s 73) as we hadnt access to her money. He said that he would pass all Mum’s accounts to his wife in an envelope who would put them with a solicitor!
hmmm
My brother’s wife is one of those quiet ones who have a lot to say in the background but withdrawn with mum and me.
My brother and me had a discussion/argument about psy9ng mum’s bills or looking after if anything happened to him (he’s 73) as we hadnt access to her money. He said that he would pass all Mum’s accounts to his wife in an envelope who would put them with a solicitor!
hmmm
Its no good including your mum in any decision making, because she no longer understands the issues and will just refuse. She has reached the stage where you will have to just tell her what is happening, rather than asking her what she wants, or trying to reason with her.
I dont have any experience with family mediation and dont know whether it would work in your circumstances
You cant dismantle the POA - only your mum could do that, and even then only if she has the capacity to do so (which I doubt). The nuclear option is to involve the Office of Public Guardians and you dont yet have any proof of wrongdoing - so put that on the back burner for now.
You have set a few things in motion with the doctor at the hospital and the GP. nd also requesting a copy of the POA. I would also contact SS and then see what happens. I know it didnt work last time, but things have moved on since then and your mum is now at risk.
Sounds like some kind of subterfuge or dodgy deal, why the secrecy and what has it got to do with his wife.
I agree. Technically, his wife should not even be privy to the information - she has no place in this whatsoever. She might inherit your brother's house if he dies but she would not inherit his PoA for your mum! If she has 'an envelope' with all the details she'd be legally obiged to pass that to you as the surviving PoA.
I really dont think that your brother understands how POA works.
He seems to think that he has the authority to change the POA, throw another attorney off, nominate another person as attorney and dictate what would happen if he died. He cant do any of this. He seems to be treating your mums accounts as if they were his own, whereas in reality he is just a steward. The money remains your mums and should be used for her benefit.
He seems to think that he has the authority to change the POA, throw another attorney off, nominate another person as attorney and dictate what would happen if he died. He cant do any of this. He seems to be treating your mums accounts as if they were his own, whereas in reality he is just a steward. The money remains your mums and should be used for her benefit.
Alora, you’re obviously pleased to have got the ball rolling on things but please be patient. You are waiting for several things to happen. Have a breather before there are any further developments. You can’t really do anything more until you hear from the various people / organisations you have contacted.
As has been said above, your brother fundamentally misunderstands how a PoA works and what his duties to your mother are. There reaches a point when the PWD can no longer make rational decisions about important matters relating to his/her health and wellbeing or finances and the attorneys have to override the PWD’s wishes because s/he lacks capacity and it is in his/her best interests.
As has been said above, your brother fundamentally misunderstands how a PoA works and what his duties to your mother are. There reaches a point when the PWD can no longer make rational decisions about important matters relating to his/her health and wellbeing or finances and the attorneys have to override the PWD’s wishes because s/he lacks capacity and it is in his/her best interests.
I can only comment on my experience with SS, when you are self-funding:
SS will decide on a care package (in our case, following a hospital discharge), then contact to arrange payment. So, if SS deem a 4x daily care package is required, you / your brother would be required to sort out payment. If you refuse (I did) then a safeguarding issue will be raised, and a social worker involved. I did not object to my mother having carers, I objected to having a care package put in place that wasn't discussed, and with carers that didn't suit us. I our case, SW agreed there was no safeguarding issue, and case was closed. However, if your brother was to refuse to pay, I suspect SS have the power to pursue it - but I don't know.
I'm still wondering if your brother is simply using your mum's cards to access her account, not POA? If POA is jointly, he cannot act without your agreement - so what has he been doing? Of course it may be jointly and severally. You'll know once your copy arrives.
You've done really well to get some much in the pipeline, now just be patient , and see what happens.
SS will decide on a care package (in our case, following a hospital discharge), then contact to arrange payment. So, if SS deem a 4x daily care package is required, you / your brother would be required to sort out payment. If you refuse (I did) then a safeguarding issue will be raised, and a social worker involved. I did not object to my mother having carers, I objected to having a care package put in place that wasn't discussed, and with carers that didn't suit us. I our case, SW agreed there was no safeguarding issue, and case was closed. However, if your brother was to refuse to pay, I suspect SS have the power to pursue it - but I don't know.
I'm still wondering if your brother is simply using your mum's cards to access her account, not POA? If POA is jointly, he cannot act without your agreement - so what has he been doing? Of course it may be jointly and severally. You'll know once your copy arrives.
You've done really well to get some much in the pipeline, now just be patient , and see what happens.
I didn’t realise that an lpa crystallises when there is a confirmation of the Donor’s incapacity, up to that point the Donor says exactly what they want to happen ie appoint/fire attorneys, delegate tasks (financial or otherwise).
Mum delegated the running of her finances to my brother several years ago so she must have given verbal permission to her banks for my brother to pay bills on her behalf.
Unless I’ve got it wrong ?.
Mum delegated the running of her finances to my brother several years ago so she must have given verbal permission to her banks for my brother to pay bills on her behalf.
Unless I’ve got it wrong ?.
For an LPA for property and financial affairs I don’t think that the donor has to have lost capacity for the attorneys to be able to act (I think that it was different for the old EPA).
Your brother may have been running your mother’s accounts informally, behind the scenes as it were, rather than under the LPA. You will find out when you approach the bank with your copy of the LPA.
Your brother may have been running your mother’s accounts informally, behind the scenes as it were, rather than under the LPA. You will find out when you approach the bank with your copy of the LPA.
I'm not sure you can make that sort of arrangement with a bank. (I may be wrong!) Surely, that's what PoA is for? I can't see a bank giving access to someone else without a formal arrangement. So if your brother has been running mum's accounts for years, it could be he hasn't actually registered the PoA and is doing it informally. She could just have given him her paperwork and maybe a few passwords.
I do know that some banks take a very dim view of one person controlling someone else's bank account - what's to stop them emptying it? I do recall some years ago, someone here on TP went to their mum's bank to try to stop her mum drawing lots of money out every day. She told the bank her reason, i.e. her mum had dementia and they actually froze the account because no PoA was in place. I suppose banks need to cover themselves.
I think you can check if a PoA has been registered (via the OPG I think - @nitram will know...) so when you get your copy that's something you need to check.
The point is, just because your brother has access to your mum's accounts and holds PoA, it doesn't mean he is acting with the PoA. Do you know if he has actually registered it with her banks? I imagine you don't know because he won't even tell you where she holds her accounts.
From what you've said about your brother, the info he withholds from you and denying you any access even though you are a joint attorney... it looks really dodgy! It could be he feels he has the 'right' to control your mum's money because 1) she wants him to and 2) he holds PoA, so he doesn't need to bother doing it all officially because if challenged he can just wave the PoA and everything will be fine... I could be completely wrong but if he was acting in this way (informally rather than via the PoA) it would certainly explain a lot of his behaviour. BTW, a spreadsheet with numbers on is meaningless. You need to see real bank statements. Because - worst case scenaio - he could simply be emptying your mum's accounts and making up the numbers he shows you. You'd only find out after her death. Don't forget also what I said in an earlier post - is it possible he's got her to change her will?
Disclaimer: sorry - I am a very suspicious person. But then, your brother is acting suspiciously...
I actually think the scenario you have outlined is quite possible.
The whole point of a POA is so that you can legally appoint someone to make decisions for you once you no longer have the capacity to make them. That doesnt mean once you are unable to say what you want - it means understanding the consequences of these decisions too. Thats why with dementia there comes a time when the attorney has to over-rule what the person with dementia wants in order to implement what they need.
Before they lose capacity, though, the POA can be used by the attorney with the donors consent. This means that if, when your mum wanted your brother to take over the accounts, she went with him and took the POA, then the bank would indeed set it up through the POA.
Since then, though, it certainly sounds to me as though your mum has lost capacity to make decisions about her finances and POA. This means that now your brother should be doing things in her best interest, even if it means over-riding her wants, and your mum can no longer change the POA.
Edit to add, that it means that now (if you are also POA) you can also do things without her consent. But check with the POA once t arrives
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I'm sure someone I know has POA for friends who live abroad. They definitely have capacity, but wanted someone UK based to manage their affairs here. I assume they instruct her and she does what is required, but I'm quite sure the bank don't contact the donor each time. I think there is an assumption , once POA is registered, that attorney will be acting the best interests of the donor, regardless of capacity. But, I may be wrong.
No-one has ever contacted my Mother to confirm that she is happy for me to deal with her finances, using POA.
No-one has ever contacted my Mother to confirm that she is happy for me to deal with her finances, using POA.
i think it’s more likely mum has made it clear that she only wants my brother to run everything and he is following her instructions to the letter. When we talked about her finances on Wednesday and her not having money of her own she said:
‘Well, you were very young at that time when my brother took over (50!)’ and I like it the way it is.
. Actually it wasn’t true Mum asked me if I was happy him doing it and I said fine As I had children at home. it was pretty low key and I didn’t see a problem. My brother seemed pretty reasonable - it’s only since he’s retired has he become more the way he is. It’s almost like he doesn’t like me and is very protective of mum. I don’t know what I’ve done wrong but im not trusted.
Mum said she thought it just wouldn’t work with three people (me, my brother and Mum) doing the accounts, my brother does a good job, he’s the man and she likes it that way.
She doesn’t grasp how convoluted the arrangement is with her money for me if I need to buy anything for her. She’ll agree to it, I email my brother, he emails me back with alternatives or queries, I go to Mum and she’s forgotten , spend 10 minutes explaining it again but I usually give up. I used to do Mum’s shopping for her via Sainsbury’s I used to have to email my brother the amount and he’d put it in my account in the end I told him to do the shopping.
I think canary’s right mum does make decisions but doesn’t think of the consequences and won’t’ listen. Think ‘Toad in Wind in the Willows. Thinking she doesn’t need a wheelchair when she can only walk a few steps. It doesn’t help that my brother only sees her every couple months and never outside her home.
I still feelthere is something not right, nothing runs smoothly, lots of road blocks and keeping me outside the loop.
‘Well, you were very young at that time when my brother took over (50!)’ and I like it the way it is.
. Actually it wasn’t true Mum asked me if I was happy him doing it and I said fine As I had children at home. it was pretty low key and I didn’t see a problem. My brother seemed pretty reasonable - it’s only since he’s retired has he become more the way he is. It’s almost like he doesn’t like me and is very protective of mum. I don’t know what I’ve done wrong but im not trusted.
Mum said she thought it just wouldn’t work with three people (me, my brother and Mum) doing the accounts, my brother does a good job, he’s the man and she likes it that way.
She doesn’t grasp how convoluted the arrangement is with her money for me if I need to buy anything for her. She’ll agree to it, I email my brother, he emails me back with alternatives or queries, I go to Mum and she’s forgotten , spend 10 minutes explaining it again but I usually give up. I used to do Mum’s shopping for her via Sainsbury’s I used to have to email my brother the amount and he’d put it in my account in the end I told him to do the shopping.
I think canary’s right mum does make decisions but doesn’t think of the consequences and won’t’ listen. Think ‘Toad in Wind in the Willows. Thinking she doesn’t need a wheelchair when she can only walk a few steps. It doesn’t help that my brother only sees her every couple months and never outside her home.
I still feelthere is something not right, nothing runs smoothly, lots of road blocks and keeping me outside the loop.
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