Financial query

[Chemmy]

A quick Google shows the £400 isn't untypical

http://www.risbygatesolicitors.co.uk/powersofattorney/

The cost?
Many firms of solicitors charge in excess of £500 for a standard LPA. We charge a more reasonable £350 + VAT.
Or if at the same time as making a Will, the cost is lower - standard LPA £275 + VAT.

 

[hollycat]

Just done LPA last week:

Cost to register

£130 for health/welfare LPA

£130 for property/finance LPA

Total to REGISTER £260 PLUS any associated preparation and official signatures that were required, which in our case was nil as we prepared our own.

QUESTION 1. What does the solicitor want £400 actually for ?

QUESTION 2. Do you have both of the above LPA's or just one of them ?

 

[Saffie]

When we attended a Memories matters course 2 years ago, we had various speakers during the 10 weeks it ran. One was a solicitor for the elderly and she quoted £750 per each LPA - F & A and H&W, making a total of £1,500 for both. It was the reason we put off doing the LPA which, of course resulted in my having to apply for deputyship this year. So far, the Deputyship fees have not reached that amount. Solicitor's fees vary like all private services and the area, status of the company etc. all play their part I expect.

 

[Chemmy]

If you choose to do it through a solicitor rather than filling in the paperwork youself, there's always going to be a premium to pay. I don't think Poster is having issues with the cost, just where the money should come from.

Just goes to show though, that it's wise to shop around.

 

[poster]

The LPA HAS been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. I am just arguing that I do not see that it is right to just take payment out of my mums account. With all due respect I could not do that. I know she has dementia and caused me a lot of distress over Christmas but I just would not steal from her account. I would go to the CAB and see what they have to say on the matter before doing anything. How would you like it if you found out a large amoount of money had been taken out of your account without your knowledge to pay a bill which you said you could not pay and did not want to pay. That is basically theft in my eyes and I do not take advantage of a situation like that.

I think I will also have to speak to my mums social worker. I have an email address for her so I can put someting in writing.

 

[Mariondb]

This really has nothing to do with your Mum's Social Worker, it is a financial decision that you, as the attorney, are empowered to make. I am just a bit confused. Your original post gives the impression that you feel aggrieved because your Mum will not pay out of funds she has and is expecting you to. Most people have agreed that is the case but then you seem to say that you won't take the money out of your Mum's account because that is wrong.

With respect you cannot have it both ways and it is nobody else's bill. If the solicitor has done the job you asked him to do, then his bill should be paid. If you cannot pay it from your Mother's account as her attorney (as you should), then that is your decision and you will have to pay it yourself.

So I have to agree with Saffie, I am not sure what advice you are now seeking but wish you good luck in sorting it out in whatever way you want it to go.

 

[jenniferpa]

My thought is that perhaps Poster would be happier being told this by someone with who she has a face to face relationship. It can be difficult to take advice from a bunch of people you don't know on an online forum. From experience I know that we are a pretty reliable bunch when it comes to this sort of thing, but can understand that that might involve a leap of faith.

 

[Chemmy]

Hello again Poster

It does sound as though we're all having a bit of a go at you but really we're all very much on your side and do want to support you through these difficult times.

From your other thread, it sounds as though your mother can be a bit overbearing at times and I wonder whether your reluctance to use her money without her permission is because you're worried about how she will react when she sees her bank statement. Perhaps this is why you feel you need an 'official' judgment you can show her? I can understand that.

Two suggestions:

If you do decide to pay the money, after further advice, from her account then you should print out the page from the directgov website I mentioned earlier which shows quite clearly that the money should come from her funds, not yours

If, on the other hand, you decide to pay the bill yourself to keep the peace, then make a note to reimburse yourself at a later date when she's less aware of her financial affairs, because like it or not, that time will come and you will have to make difficult decisions on her behalf, both as her only child and as her attorney.

Here's wishing you a very Happy New Year

 

[Chemmy]

One of the difficult decisions will be deciding when to stop your mother receiving items of post such as bank statements, pension documents etc.

I had my mum’s post redirected to my house for a good eighteen months before she went into the CH as she got herself worked up in to such a state about letters she didn’t understand. No amount of patiently trying to explain the contents to her made the slightest difference.

So I used to vet all her mail and then put personal stuff, cards etc, in one big envelope and send it to a neighbour who would pop it through Mum’s letterbox.

Mum was none the wiser and consequently far less stressed and I knew important documents weren’t getting lost or overlooked.

Another possible ethical dilemma for you to consider in advance is what you are going to do (as her financial attorney) when she needs new clothes/ spectacles/ dentures or whatever. The advice you will get from everyone on here is that you should use her money to pay for these things, unless you’re giving them as a birthday or Christmas present. If you can prepare in advance how you’re going to react when the time comes, you’ll find it’ll make things a lot easier.

And you need to inform her (politely ) how it’s going to be, not ask her permission; remember things have changed and you are now the responsible adult, not her.

 

[poster]

At the moment if she needs new shoes or clothes she just goes to the shop, decides what she wants and pays with her debit card. When I went for Christmas, she informed me that she wants a new cover for her bed and in the New Year she will ask to be taken to the shop in town where she can buy what she wants. At the moment she is perfectly capable of going shopping. She wanted to buy a new television and dvd player. Since she has just moved to a new area she did not know if there was a shop she could get these items from, so one of the carers took her to the shop and she chose what she wanted.

In two or three years time (or however long it takes) she may not be able to do this and then I will have to help her. I have not looked into how I can do this living so far away. What if she needs shoes or a new coat? I need to speak to her bank to see how its going to work. If she gets to the stage where she cannot just go to a shop and use her debit card and I am not there to hand her money from her account.

I cannot bury my head in the sand.

 

[poster]

This really has nothing to do with your Mum's Social Worker, it is a financial decision that you, as the attorney, are empowered to make. I am just a bit confused. Your original post gives the impression that you feel aggrieved because your Mum will not pay out of funds she has and is expecting you to. Most people have agreed that is the case but then you seem to say that you won't take the money out of your Mum's account because that is wrong.

With respect you cannot have it both ways and it is nobody else's bill. If the solicitor has done the job you asked him to do, then his bill should be paid. If you cannot pay it from your Mother's account as her attorney (as you should), then that is your decision and you will have to pay it yourself.

So I have to agree with Saffie, I am not sure what advice you are now seeking but wish you good luck in sorting it out in whatever way you want it to go.

oh well I have already emailed the social worker. I am tired of all this to be honest. I am losing the mental energy to deal with it

 

[Chemmy]

If you go into your local branch of your mum's bank with the certified copy of the POA (and identification - never try any of this without photo ID and proof of yours and her address!) you can set up an arrangement where you can have a duplicate bank card and cheque book for her account so - only if/when you need it - everything is in place. You will also be able to withdraw cash for expenses and arrange for duplicate statements to be sent to you if you want- it's just like running your own account. If you can also arrange on-line access to her account, this will enable you to keep an eye on what she's spending and step in if anything starts seeming odd.

You also should make her bank aware of her dementia problems because there will come a time when she won't remember the PIN no on her debit card and she could be held liable if she has given this to a carer, shopkeeper or anyone else. Or written it on the card The bank can then decide if/when they need to issue her with a chip and signature card instead. At least if you have formally informed them, that will cover you in case the card is fraudulently used.

It's all about staying one step ahead of the game; the aim is to have the systems in place before you need them.

In the early days, I used to take mum to the shops in a wheelchair when I visited which made a nice outing but these days, I just buy what she needs and reimburse myself from her account. If you buy her something from any of the high street stores, it's easy to change it if it doesn't fit.

 

[rajahh]

When I registered POA at my husband's bank they wrote to him saying he was no longer able to use his card, or to sign cheques etc. I had previously asked about this and was assured he would still be able to have full access. I just wanted to have permission to have an overview.

They would not let me withdraw the POA so in the end with my husband's permission we went to a different bank and opened a joint bank account, so I do not have POA at that bank.

I amnot sure if this is the same at all banks, but before registering you need it in writing from the top man that your mother can still have access as usual to her bank account.

Jeannette

 

[poster]

If you go into your local branch of your mum's bank with the certified copy of the POA (and identification - never try any of this without photo ID and proof of yours and her address!) you can set up an arrangement where you can have a duplicate bank card and cheque book for her account so - only if/when you need it - everything is in place. You will also be able to withdraw cash for expenses and arrange for duplicate statements to be sent to you if you want- it's just like running your own account. If you can also arrange on-line access to her account, this will enable you to keep an eye on what she's spending and step in if anything starts seeming odd.

You also should make her bank aware of her dementia problems because there will come a time when she won't remember the PIN no on her debit card and she could be held liable if she has given this to a carer, shopkeeper or anyone else. Or written it on the card The bank can then decide if/when they need to issue her with a chip and signature card instead. At least if you have formally informed them, that will cover you in case the card is fraudulently used.

It's all about staying one step ahead of the game; the aim is to have the systems in place before you need them.

In the early days, I used to take mum to the shops in a wheelchair when I visited which made a nice outing but these days, I just buy what she needs and reimburse myself from her account. If you buy her something from any of the high street stores, it's easy to change it if it doesn't fit.

The problem is, I live in London and my mum lives in Somerset, so I do not see her very often due to a busy work and life. So I cannot take her shopping and take something back if it doesnt fit. The carers in her care home would have to do that.

Thank you everybody for your messages. I will phone the CAB on Tuesday and then come back to this..

bye for now

 

[nitram]

Under BBA regulations a bank must deny access to any account by anybody who they have reason to believe lacks capacity, this is obviously sensible as the bank is effectively holding the money in trust for the account holder.

This means that if an attorney presents a registered EPA the bank should lock the donor's access, with an LPA it depends on whether the bank consider the donor to be incapable.

Not all banks work in the same way, I have sent a PM to poster naming a high street bank that using a registered LPA allowed me to specify account by account whether donor and/or attorney were to have access and/or cards.

I could also name financial institutions that automatically deny the donor access and one that would not record the LPA without proof of incapacity!

Advance apologies to poster if the bank I name has changed it's rules.

 

[poster]

I am very upset and have been crying at work. I spoke to the social worker who said my mum should pay the fee and i should take it from her account. When i queried this with the solicitor he said i contacted him and said we want lpa and he then said since i broached it then i have to pay. I said my mum has ample funds and he was not i.terested. All he said was that she said she could not pay so i have to pay. I dont like him
And it seems i have no choice but to pay
I hate my mum and when i asked the solicitor if i can take money from her account he did not comment. All he kept saying is my mum said she cant afford it. I dont ever want to deal with him again.

 

[Jancis]

Oh dear poster, I am so sorry. Life shouldn't be this complicated but I'm sad to report that when dealing with cases of dementia it is often the case. First and foremost do not think that you have to pay your mum's debt or that your solicitor is correct. In my experience, solicitors don't give a damn who pays them so long as they get their money. I am not clear who he regards as his client but do not allow yourself to be bullied by him. I am in the process of going through a serious complaint against my solicitor involving the legal ombudsman and I have been amazed to find out clever solicitors can be when they are professionally challenged. You are getting too stressed out (understandably) but please, please do not panic. Your best bet is to phone the Office of the Public Guardian as suggested by Geum123 and ask them if it is OK to pay the solicitors fee out of your mum's account. No need to tell them the background as this might confuse the issue. Everyone who has posted here agrees you should not have to pay the fee to set up your mum's LPA. Even the social worker agrees.

Take care,
Jancis

 

[geum123]

Poster,
I am so sorry this issue is still not resolved and it is causing you upset.
I understand that you may prefer to have a direct conversation with someone qualified to put your mind at rest.


Why don't you
1. Contact the Office of the Public Guardian

I shall post it here again for you.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/p...-act/index.htm

Office of the Public Guardian
PO Box 16185
Birmingham
B2 2WH

Phone number: 0300 456 0300 - Phone lines are open Monday - Friday 9am - 5pm (Except Wednesday 10am - 5pm)
Fax number: 0870 739 5780

Email: customerservices@publicguardian.gsi.gov.uk

OR


2. Contact another solicitor and ask them. Many solicitors give a free half hour, or hour consultation.

If another solicitor said yes payment should be taken from your Mothers account would you be able to do so??

 

[nitram]

As attorney to somebody with dementia you will sooner or later have to realize that subterfuge and white lies are par for the course, if you don't will end up worrying yourself to death, ask any medium to long term carer for somebody with dementia.

You cannot afford to pay £400.

Your mother can afford to to pay the £400.

The payment is to set up an LPA which in in her best interests.

You have a registered LPA which gives you authority to pay. It actually does more than that it imposes a duty on you to handle your mother's financial affairs in her best interests..

All posters to this thread have said they think you should pay out of your mother's funds.

The SW has said you should pay from your mother's funds.

The OPG will certainly say that the LPA gives you authority to handle your mother's affairs, if you press them further they may refer you to the COP as legally the OPG deal with people with capacity whereas the COP deal with people who lack capacity.

You agreed to pay, with money that you don't have, in haste, but basically to progress the making of the LPA as you could see that your mother's statement that she could not afford to pay was going to make it impossible to get a LPA before she lost capacity. With no LPA you would have ended up having to apply for deputyship. You are now in a position to pay out of your mother's funds and there is no reason why you should not, you are not stealing from her you are handling her affairs.

I actually may have some sympathy with the solicitor, he appears to have heard your mother say that she could not afford to pay and also heard you say that you would pay. Was any firm agreement reached as to who should pay or was he left with only an impression that you would pay?

He cannot tell you that your mother should pay because she has said that she cannot afford to pay, moreover you agreed to pay. He cannot tell you to pay from your mother's account as he has had no instruction to advise you on how to handle your mother's affairs, moreover the payment in question appears to be a contentious one to himself.

Out of interest was the invoice addressed to you, your mother, or jointly?

 

[poster]

As attorney to somebody with dementia you will sooner or later have to realize that subterfuge and white lies are par for the course, if you don't will end up worrying yourself to death, ask any medium to long term carer for somebody with dementia.

You cannot afford to pay £400.

Your mother can afford to to pay the £400.

The payment is to set up an LPA which in in her best interests.

You have a registered LPA which gives you authority to pay. It actually does more than that it imposes a duty on you to handle your mother's financial affairs in her best interests..

All posters to this thread have said they think you should pay out of your mother's funds.

The SW has said you should pay from your mother's funds.

The OPG will certainly say that the LPA gives you authority to handle your mother's affairs, if you press them further they may refer you to the COP as legally the OPG deal with people with capacity whereas the COP deal with people who lack capacity.

You agreed to pay, with money that you don't have, in haste, but basically to progress the making of the LPA as you could see that your mother's statement that she could not afford to pay was going to make it impossible to get a LPA before she lost capacity. With no LPA you would have ended up having to apply for deputyship. You are now in a position to pay out of your mother's funds and there is no reason why you should not, you are not stealing from her you are handling her affairs.

I actually may have some sympathy with the solicitor, he appears to have heard your mother say that she could not afford to pay and also heard you say that you would pay. Was any firm agreement reached as to who should pay or was he left with only an impression that you would pay?

He cannot tell you that your mother should pay because she has said that she cannot afford to pay, moreover you agreed to pay. He cannot tell you to pay from your mother's account as he has had no instruction to advise you on how to handle your mother's affairs, moreover the payment in question appears to be a contentious one to himself.

Out of interest was the invoice addressed to you, your mother, or jointly?

I mentioned previously that I felt I could not just remove the solicitors fee out of my mothers account. I therefore tried to explain to my mum this evening how Power of Attorney works and I said I have been told by the Office of the Public Guardian (I phoned them this afternoon) that I do not pay the fee and my mother does. She went absolutely bollistic. She said I have got it all wrong and that I pay because she does not have much money. I then said as her Attorney I can withdraw money from her account. She then said that Power of Attorney was very cunning to allow people to do that and under no circumstances was I to take any money out of her account. I feared this would be her reaction so that is why I was so worried about just extracting the fee fo the solicitor as suggested by people on here and fom her social worker. I do not think my mum fully understood what Power of Attorney means and she thought that because I was saying to her that if she gets ill and can no longer go shopping with her debit card, I will have to make arrangements to get money to her and one of the carers at her home would help her by letting her have cash. When my mum heard this she said I was making a big fuss about nothing. I think she assumes her dementia will not ever get as bad as that. I hope so but you never know.

So in a nutshell she is very angry that I can go and get money out of her account. She is also very angry that I was honest enough to tell her that I can pay her LPA fee from her account. To put it mildly, she is livid. If this is how she reacts before I have done anything like use her cash to pay the fee, imagine what woud happen if I did go ahead and pay it out of her account. I dread to think.

She now probably thinks Lasting Power of Attorney is very cunning and that the Office of the Public Guardian are cunning to suggest this to me. All she kept saying to me is "very cunning"

I tried to remind her that she went to her bank and saw the manager 3 years ago to get a document drawn up to allow me to have control of her finances. It fell on deaf ears and she said she was hanging up the phone.

I honestly do not know which way to turn anymore.

The ast time my mum showed me her bank statments she had about £12k in one account and £6k in another. She said to me this evening that she does not have much money. Maybe some of the above mentioned money has been spent (she has bought a television and dvd player on two occasions) She bought one tv and dvd player and when she moved to the new home she did not wat to take the tv with her so she gave it away. She aso gave the dvd playe away because it was too complicated for her to use. Now she is in a new care home, she has bought another dvd playe and television. Two DVD players and two televisions probably amounted to about £500 so that is £500 gone from he account. If you also take out the £300 for the solicitor then its £800 from her money. Maybe she has spend money on other things I do not know about, which means I do not have a true picture of her finances, so if she says she doesnt have much money, I will just have to accept it and pay the fee.