Financial query

Mariondb

Registered User
Aug 24, 2011
183
0
Either your Mum is refusing to pay because she is being difficult or because of the dementia, there may be a very strong case to suggest that she is not making a reasonable judgement and placing herself at risk of being sued for non-payment.

That is where you, as her chosen.....repeat chosen attorney steps in to protect her - you do not refuse to pay solicitors bills!.

You should not protect he, however, by personally paying the bills she chooses not to pay.

My MIL is in early dementia stages and very lucid most of the time - her short term memory is shot but she is perfectly capable of making financial decisions. My husband has an LPA and pays all her bills on her behalf and is organising her savings to pay for her care - he doesn't bother to run it by her and whilst nobody would suggest she lacks capacity to pay them herself, she just can't be bothered to.

If your Mum has mental capacity and is just being difficult then it is up to the solicitor to chase her (his client) for the money not you..... if she is refusing due to dementia then you invoke the LPA and pay it from her account. Neither your Mother nor her solicitor can have it both ways...
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,274
0
Bury
"...it is up to the solicitor to chase her (his client) for the money..."

The donor is not of necessity the client, I could instruct a solicitor to prepare an LPA for my son, he would be the donor and I would expect to be invoiced for his fee.

Do you know for certain who the solicitor considers gave him instructions?
 

poster

Registered User
Dec 28, 2011
190
0
The LPA has been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. I would never take money out of my mothers account without her permission. I am going to seek advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau and then see what transpires out of that. Unfortunately they are closed until the 3rd January, but as soon as they open I am going to make an appointment and see what they say. Until then, there is no point trying to think about what should or should not be done. I am going to try and forget about it an enjoy the New Year because there is nothing I can do at the moment and thinking about it will only spoil my weekend.

I will update this thread once I have some concrete answers from the relevant authorities. :)
 

Nebiroth

Registered User
Aug 20, 2006
3,510
0
If the LPA is registered then you can simply access your mother's funds to pay the bill. There is no way that this would be taken as unreasonable - the creation of the LPA was so obviously to your mother's benefit so it is perfectly OK for her to meet the costs. The big thing that attorneys can't do is to use their authority to their own benefit.

If the LPA is registered and this has all been accepted and the authority conferred then the period of objection has passed AFAIK

It sounds to me as though the LPA was created so that it became immediately effective and was registered right away, rather than containing a clause saying that it could only be registered if your mum has lost capacity to manage her own affairs. The size of the solicitor's bill suggests it includes the registration (and fees) with the OPG

Even if the "capacity clause" was to be added, mum's refusal to pay her own bills despite having ample funds to do so, would I think be strong evidence that she is unable to manage her own affairs and would be grounds to register the LPA on that premise anyway.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,589
0
Yorkshire
I would never take money out of my mothers account without her permission.

I wouldn't ask her permission about anything like this any more; just do what needs to be done and stay schtum. Your mum is not able to give a reasoned response - that's why the LPA has been registered. You are still expecting her to make rational decisions and actually that's not really fair on either her or you.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,274
0
Bury
Take the register LPA to the bank allowing then to register it on their system and then just pay the fee using that authority.

In doing this you are only using the power for the reason it was created, it could be argued that you actually have a legal duty to do this.
 

geum123

Registered User
May 20, 2009
4,604
0
Hi Poster,
Why don't you contact the Office of the Public Guardian direct?

http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/protecting-the-vulnerable/mental-capacity-act/index.htm

Office of the Public Guardian
PO Box 16185
Birmingham
B2 2WH

Phone number: 0300 456 0300 - Phone lines are open Monday - Friday 9am - 5pm (Except Wednesday 10am - 5pm)
Fax number: 0870 739 5780

Email: customerservices@publicguardian.gsi.gov.uk

My Dad didn't have capacity to grant LPA so I had to apply for Deputyship.
Fees come from my fathers accounts. Not mine.

The OPG have been very helpful with any queries I have had.

Best of luck.
Geum.
 

poster

Registered User
Dec 28, 2011
190
0
Actually the LPA was taken out not for now but for the future. At the moment my mother can make some coherent decisions. For example.... she lived in a care home and did not like it. Without going and speaking to anyone, she got the yellow pages, looked for care homes and phoned around and asked if various care homes had vacancies and coud she arrange to go and have a look. One of the care homes said they had a vacancy so she contacted me and told me that she had arranged to see the care home and could I go with her. We went and had a look and liked it and then she told the manager she wanted to move there. The only problem was funding because it was more expensive than the one she was in before and she could not pay the top up fees. Her social worker managed to get them to agree to fund it and she moved in. My mother also of her own accord phoned some people she knew and asked if they could move her and they did. This proves that my mother is sometimes of sound mind. She found her own care home, found her own removal people and sorted out how they were going to pack up her belongings. So with my mother it is swings and roundabouts. Sometimes she is so on the ball you would not think she has any form of dementia. She used to belong to a bible study group in her church where she lived before. In order to fully participate in the group, you had to get the study book and read up on it so you could answer the relevant questions and discuss whatever they were discussing. My mum did all that. During Christmas, we sat and watched University Challenge on television and my mum was able to answer one or two of the quesions that were put to the panel,..... so you see she has an intelligent mind. She was a school teacher and was grammar school educated but at times she acts like a child with behavioural problems. She says she has no interest in anything in the home and wants to do intellectual things and yet when I tried to say she could find things outside the home she was not interested. So the LPA is for when she is totally unable to think coherently at any time. At the moment it is sometimes ok and sometimes not. For example it is not normal to call your daughter a rubbish pianist and to tell her that you do not feel it necessary to give her a Christmas card. That is either the dementia talking or her own natural personality which is very selfish and rude. I am at a loss to work out which is which.
 

hollycat

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
1,349
0
My mothers LPA has been registered and will be used in the future.

HOWEVER

my hubby and I have THE RIGHT TO USE THE FINANCIAL LPA IMMEDIATELY !

Mum didn't put any "conditions" within her LPA so in effect my hubby and I can do

WHAT WE WANT, WHEN WE WANT...........within the rules and general guidlines of any LPA.

Without asking you to go into too many details, if there is a "condition" within your LPA that says words to effect of "you take over when mum looses capacity" I think you are best phoning OPG and asking them for advice and not CAB.

I wish you luck with finding a solution; if I were in you shoes, with the facts you have given us above, I would draw the money out of mums account and pay for the solicitors fees...........just my opinion !

Tks and best of luck.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,589
0
Yorkshire
Actually the LPA was taken out not for now but for the future. At the moment my mother can make some coherent decisions.

Ok, just to clarify - the LPA has been drawn up by the solicitor but has NOT been registered yet. Is that right?

If that is the case then you can't authorise the payment from your mum's account as you can't use the powers provided by LPA until it has been registered with the OPG. (see below)

Do you know at what point in the future your mother expects you to register it and to take control of her finances? You can do this whilst she is still has capacity but presumably this has to be with her agreement* (and I'm guessing that might not be forthcoming at the moment)

Actually, if it wasn't her intention to get the LPA registered straight away, it's even more of a cheek expecting you to pay for it as there's nothing to stop her replacing you with a different attorney, if she felt like it.

* taken from OPG site
If the attorney is making the application, the OPG will formally notify the donor.
If the donor is making the application the OPG will notify the attorney(s).
If one of the joint and several attorneys makes the application, the OPG will inform the donor and the other attorney(s).
It is therefore a good idea to discuss the application to register the LPA with the donor or attorney beforehand.If the original LPA form is missing, it may be possible to accept a copy certified by the donor or by the solicitor who originally prepared it. In general, only the original LPA is acceptable.
For information about how much it costs to register the LPA, see OPG fees guidance.
If you need to act on a donor’s behalf before the LPA is registered, you cannot use the unregistered LPA.
If you need to make an urgent decision, you can apply to the Court of Protection (a fee is payable for this).
You are advised to register your LPA as soon as you have completed the LPA
 
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poster

Registered User
Dec 28, 2011
190
0
The LPA HAS been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. I am just arguing that I do not see that it is right to just take payment out of my mums account. With all due respect I could not do that. I know she has dementia and caused me a lot of distress over Christmas but I just would not steal from her account. I would go to the CAB and see what they have to say on the matter before doing anything. How would you like it if you found out a large amoount of money had been taken out of your account without your knowledge to pay a bill which you said you could not pay and did not want to pay. That is basically theft in my eyes and I do not take advantage of a situation like that.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
I'm sorry you see it like that. It isn't, however, theft: it's paying a debt she has incurred, when she has funds to do so. If she doesn't see it as her debt, and thinks she doesn't have the money to pay for it, when it is and she has then I would say that was the dementia talking.
 

hollycat

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
1,349
0
The LPA HAS been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. I am just arguing that I do not see that it is right to just take payment out of my mums account. With all due respect I could not do that. I know she has dementia and caused me a lot of distress over Christmas but I just would not steal from her account. I would go to the CAB and see what they have to say on the matter before doing anything. How would you like it if you found out a large amoount of money had been taken out of your account without your knowledge to pay a bill which you said you could not pay and did not want to pay. That is basically theft in my eyes and I do not take advantage of a situation like that.

With similar TOTAL respect and without wishing to cause you any further worry or distress:

You have EVERY RIGHT as the LPA is registered, to spend your mums money on your mums bills"...............HOWEVER...........HOWEVER...........

what CONDITIONS or RESTRICTIONS (if any) are there on the LPA ?

IF there are NO restrictions, as previously mentioned, YOU HAVE A DUTY to spend mums money on mums bills.

You are not a thief, rather ACTING IN MUMS BEST INTEREST AS HER ATTOURNEY
 

sussexsue

Registered User
Jun 10, 2009
1,527
0
West Sussex
Hi

I really dont want to upset you, and please dont take this the wrong way. I appreciate that you are trying so hard to do the right thing. Several people on here have gone to a lot of trouble to give you some excellent advice, all with good intentions as well. Perhaps because we are detatched from your situation we can see things from a different perspective.

I would like to make a couple of observations though. You say that your mother has some savings, so the statement that your mum "could not pay" is not quite true. The fact that she "did not want to pay", is a completely different matter. She may wish to keep the money for her future needs, but at this moment she has a debt to the solicitor which she should pay. You do not have a debt and therefore are not responsible to pay.

I also think you need to lose the term "theft". You have put yourself in a position of responsibilty, with her agreement, by registering your mother's LPA. My understanding would be that facilitating her not to pay a debt when she has the means to do so, is not in her best financial interests. By taking on the LPA you have taken on responsibility for managing her finances, but have not become personally liable for her debts.

You may find that the CAB direct you to the OPG for advice.

Your opening post said this:

"My mum says she is keeping her money for a rainy day, but isnt this one of those days? Is she right to ask me to pay this bill when she has £20k in her bank account. Taking £400 out is hardly going to make her a pauper is it?"

Everyone on here, many who have been through exactly the same thing, have said you are not liable and that your mother is. I would be VERY suprised if CAB or OPG said otherwise.
 
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nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,274
0
Bury
The LPA HAS been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. I am just arguing that I do not see that it is right to just take payment out of my mums account. With all due respect I could not do that. I know she has dementia and caused me a lot of distress over Christmas but I just would not steal from her account. I would go to the CAB and see what they have to say on the matter before doing anything. How would you like it if you found out a large amoount of money had been taken out of your account without your knowledge to pay a bill which you said you could not pay and did not want to pay. That is basically theft in my eyes and I do not take advantage of a situation like that.

I'm sorry but you either have to decide that the dementia is causing your mother to refuse to pay the bill and pay it from her account using the LPA or just leave her to argue it out with the solicitor.

You cannot afford to pay the bill yourself, if you pay the bill out of her account you are acting in her best interests as her attorney.

You are quite likely in the future to have to override more irrational decisions made by by your mother, this is part of being an attorney.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
The only problem was funding because it was more expensive than the one she was in before and she could not pay the top up fees.

I'm not wishing to add any further complications but I do think that some of the statements you have given are a little bit muddled.One is that which I mentioned earlier re. the £20k v 'proof that she has under £12k.' another is the one above. Your mother would not have had to pay top-ups, in fact she wouldn't be allowed to do this, any top-up has to be paid from a different source, not the actual resident.

I think that perhaps this confusion is adding to that of the LPA situation where we, TPers are concerned. Everyone is trying to help but seem to be sometimes at cross-purposes with what help you want us to give and I sense that you are getting a little stressed with all the advice. But everyone has your best interests at heart and it is, is the end, your decision what you do. Good luck with whatever you decide.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,589
0
Yorkshire
Taken from the direct.gov.uk site

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Mentalcapacityandthelaw/Mentalcapacityandplanningahead/DG_194861

Who is responsible for paying the fees?

The person registering the Lasting Power of Attorney is responsible for paying any fees. This cost can be claimed from the donor’s (the person who made the Lasting Power of Attorney) funds.

If the fee is for a copy of the Lasting Power of Attorney forms, the fee should be paid by whoever is requesting the copy. This can normally be recovered from the donor’s funds.


Hope this helps
 

Jancis

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
2,567
0
70
Hampshire
Hi again Poster,
I know my circumstances are somewhat different but I do understand your worries which indicate you are a scrupulously honest, well meaning and empathising person.

My uncle was convinced for many years that his finances would be plundered. He was quite well-off as he and his wife had worked all their lives and had not had children to support. He appeared to have mental capacity to deal with his finances but we found out much later that he wasn't coping at all as I found books full of accounts he was trying to reconcile and notes he was making that showed that he was obviously paranoid about his money. He believed he was a pauper by the time his illness was diagnosed. Thankfully he wasn't a pauper. He now has a professional deputy looking after his affairs as he wouldn't grant me deputyship. All we can do is what we can do.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,274
0
Bury
Taken from the direct.gov.uk site

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Mentalcapacityandthelaw/Mentalcapacityandplanningahead/DG_194861

Who is responsible for paying the fees?

The person registering the Lasting Power of Attorney is responsible for paying any fees. This cost can be claimed from the donor’s (the person who made the Lasting Power of Attorney) funds.

If the fee is for a copy of the Lasting Power of Attorney forms, the fee should be paid by whoever is requesting the copy. This can normally be recovered from the donor’s funds.


Hope this helps

Depending on the date of registration that only accounts for either £120 or £130 of the £400, this assumes that no remission or exemption was applied for and granted.