EPA - accounting for cash?

[Tender Face]

No wonder this country is in the state it is in with people behaving like brainwashed zombies with no minds of their own.

Sorry to get angry, but having to endure reading the sheer submissiveness on the part of some posters made me feel nauseous.

Janishere, I would like to thank you on giving me the biggest boost on what has been one of my most difficult days .....

When I battle against sadness and depression I pray for someone to fire up my pilot light of anger to give me energy to fight for myself, let alone those I care for

If any submissiveness on TP makes you feel nauseous I suggest you find another forum to read - what I see on TP is anything BUT submissiveness ..... it is about all of us - fighting - for the best we can make of what we have - even within legal, medical boundaries which may be defined for us in a democratic way .....

'Brainwashed zombies' - 'people having no minds of their own'???? - How offensive and nauseous do you think that may be for others to read your words here???

Karen

 

[jan.]

Very well said Jennifer and Karen,

You have certainly spoken for me for one!!! I also felt angry/ offended by the remarks posted.

So thanks to both of you.

Love Jan. X

 

[sue38]

I am confused by the whole epa issue, am I obliged to obtain an epa for my mum, I stay at home full time and we have joint accounts that do not oblige both signatures, am I doing something wrong this whole thing is slightly confusing and frightening.

Hi Ashburton,

At the moment you can manage your mum's financial affairs, but if for some reason YOU were unable to deal with things - a stay in hospital or God forbid anything were to happen to you, who would then look after your mum's affairs?

I know it's looking on the black side, but if your Mum is mentally capable now of doing an EPA, it may be worth doing one and appointing yourself and someone else who could take over if you weren't around.

If you are worried it may be worth getting some professional advice.

Janishere, I know what you are saying. It DOES seem ridiculous that people who know the person best are prevented from acting in their loved one's best interests...but these rules are there to prevent vulnerable people from having their trust abused by the unscrupulous. It's sad but there are people who will misuse an EPA for their own ends.

Sue

 

[mel]

Janishere.......I think your comments are the most insensitive I have seen on this forum for some time!!!!
Why do people agonise over this?....because they care and do not want to be seen to be doing the wrong thing as far as their loved ones are concerned.
I would hardly call the agonies of posters on here as being descibed as the thoughts of brainwashed zombies

 

[Cate]

Janishere................... we are all entitled to an opinion, however there are ways of putting your point across without being offensive or rude, your post clearly is both offensive and rude.

 

[dmc]

I must say i have to agree with the other brainwashed zombies that have posted... that i also found your post a tad offensive we log onto TP to get help and and advice not to be criticised for trying to care the best we can.
please try and think before making such hurtfull remarks next time there are caring people behind these posts.
donna

 

[Nell]

There are so many issues in this matter. Each one is fraught with its own type of complications.

Firstly, and most importantly, we need to protect our loved ones with AD or VaD from financial abuse by others. Sometimes these "others" are family members, which makes the whole process exceptionally distressing and challenging. In other cases, it is individuals or organisations who feel they can "rip off" our relatives or loved ones.

Secondly we need to ensure that our loved ones don't leave themselves in difficult situations, either now or in the future, by inappropriate spending of money. If you know your loved one is spending money in a way s/he never would have previously, it seems it must be a "symptom" of the disease. Like other symptoms, we would seek to alleviate it if we could.

Thirdly we need to protect ourselves. Those of us with responsibility for other people's money (either with EPA or informally) feel a huge responsibility for that money. In my case I can honestly say I feel more responsible for every cent of Mum's than I do for every dollar of my own! Sometimes I think accounting for her money so scrupulously is not so much for her benefit but for my own!

Fourthly we want to support and protect our loved ones rights to spend their money as they wish and not to have them feel they must "account" for it in any way. But sadly this tends to clash with all the three above priorities. In Mum's case it is often a case of persuading her to spend MORE money!! Now in a home, she needs extra clothing to cope with the vagaries of the institutional laundry system. But her careful spending ways of a life time make it hard for her to accept that she needs "more" clothes than she has needed in the past.

In other cases, as documented on TP, some AD / VaD people take up spending wildly or on things they don't need or want. Either way, it falls on those of us who love and care for them to keep their best interests at heart at all times. I just hate it though when this means my decisions have to override Mum's - my gut feeling is always "it's her money - let her spend it (or not) as she will".

So I guess anything to do with the dreaded "money" will always bring out strong feelings in all of us.

We are all doing the best we can under a very difficult set of circumstances, and everyone's response will be different.

because they care and do not want to be seen to be doing the wrong thing as far as their loved ones are concerned.

trying to care the best we can.

Whilst we are guided by these good and honourable principles, I don't think we can really go far wrong. Nell

 

[Brucie]

Can I just say something here?

As the AS moderator, I considered posting immediately after janishere to say a few things. I'm assuming of course that janishere has operated an EPA as Attorney and has that working knowledge of the responsibility that entails.

In some ways I agree with the gist of the points janishere makes.

However,

There are always two sides to any situation. Members on this thread are carers to the nth degree. They care for their loved ones, and also want to do their very best for them in everything. In the EPA and its operation, they want to ensure that everything they do is legal, and will not rebound on them at some stage - with the additional pain of making them appear to be squandering someone else's money.

In my view it is always best to be cautious and seek advice. For that, advice and experience is invaluable from:

- other members from TP

- the Alzheimer's Society Help Line [The helpline is open from 8.30am to 6.30pm Monday to Friday. The number to dial is 0845 300 0336]

- the Court of Protection Help line [EPA Helpline: 020 7664 7327 or 0845 330 2963 (UK only)and web site http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/theservice/enduringpower.htm]

We have choices in the way we word and phrase things. If we don't do these appropriately for an audience, then any message will be lost.

I'd say to everyone posting here, if we are angry and frustrated, then that is even more than most times the best occasion to wait before posting, work out things in our mind, then post something that is helpful and informative, as far as we know it.

Finally, to Jennifer, Ashburton, Karen, Jan, Sue, Mel Cate, Donna and Nell...

... just a personal 'thanks'

 

[Margarita]

Seem like the jury came out lol Jennifer, Ashburton, Karen, Jan, Sue, Mel Cate, Donna and Nell,

as gormless is a good word I could use in my defence , when mum Solicitor




Foolish gave me EPOA that was sigh by my mother and another person to help sell mum house, before she was diagnosed with AZ and put it all in a joint account.

By the time she diagnosed year half later my mind was in a mess and I did not know if I was coming or going or what I was doing , that I even got con out of £10.000 in Gibraltar , talk about if I new then what I know now , from learning about AZ and they mental capability on finances or even the meaning of AZ , I always wondered back then mum pre AZ she said to me to do what I want with it all ( the money ) dame I thought she was just grieving for my father going back to Gibraltar would help her get better .

The stress of caring getting no support no info in the complication with the law and there fiancées left me gormless back then , after finding TP and reading what a mess I had done, left me so scared , so guilty that its unbelievable , you just all don’t know . taken me a year on TP to really not feel guilty bad about it , open up and talk .

Sometime in the past I got so paranoid, that I feel that someone going to knock on my door and arrest me , just from talking on TP .

janishere , don't leave TP keep reading , because it may make one feel nauseous, the law an ass Yes we all know that , but I suppose , like it has been said above they is a lot of people out they that will ripe a venerable person out of they money , so the law they to protect them , as I hope one day in the future it do that for me if god for bid I got dementia

OK now have to add humour , someone ringing my door bell lol lol . sorry got to lol or I would crack

 

[Natashalou]

only

only just caught up with this thread. I think its a matter of degree. I keep careful accounts and I have no problem deciding on things like whether to buy mum a packet of sweeties.
But it has recently come under discussion about changing the car for one that is comfy for her. this will then become the "family" car, but due to my own finances it would have to be her money that would top up the part exchange value of my car to fund this, and given she wont get use of the car more than around twice a week I do question whether this is "correct" use of her money.
On a grander scale, we are putting into place plans for her to stay at the weekend and if that suceeds whether we might extend the house to allow her to move in.
I never expected to be considering this but very recently found out I can get a reasonable redundancy package from work which will allow me to take a career break.
however, the extension would have to be funded out of her money and I certainly dont think I would take that step without taking very careful advice!

 

[Michael E]

I think we should be careful not to gang up on Janishere and drive her out of the forum... I think she makes a very valid point...

we lot do become conditioned to the situation we are in... we try so hard to be OK at what we are doing. We are all wracked with guilt that we do not do enough, try hard enough, have other agendas etc etc.

I would desperately love approval for the decisions and things I do related to AD. I really want somebody to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I want somebody to wave a magic wand and tell me this is the 'correct' thing to do, want, have rights to do about money, emotions decisions etc...

This is a hard nose freelance TV producer / Director writing, who has made decisions on a minute to minute basis and sometimes wrecked peoples hopes and aspirations for the 'good of the show'...

Professionals who regularly see many cases of AD come and go the homes where the mums and dads, wives and husbands of us all, end up in to die... And the professionals cannot get emotionally involved, care too much or they would crack... They are objective. Make the decisions and get on with their lives.

We on the other hand, for the most part, only see the person we love, falling apart and we want to do the best for them but are being constantly asked to make decisions, all the decisions about the life of one other human being. That human being never says thank you, never says that's fine, never says OK with me - so one is left going..... was I right? do I have the right? Am I putting my wishes my dreams ahead of this poor sick creature.... Very very difficult I think. Maybe we should be as Janishere says - a whole lot tougher and dispassionate.

Michael

 

[Margarita]

I sold my mother house. I thought she had Schizophrenia like my brother, the house was a chambering. I left my £20, 00 year job to take my mother to Gibraltar , because I felt ashamed of them , thought in Gibraltar I could look after them both , or even leave them pop back now then to see them left my kids in UK , youngest 15 at the time .

Then a year half later I am looking at something called AZ, brain scan said AZ not schizophrenia.

I come back to England read up that mum house would have been sold anyway


Look in my mother eyes and I see a scared, confused woman that would have had the money to have pay for the best care home, yes now I wonder if it would have been worth it , because now she has to put up with what can be funded by SW and my fait (sp) sealed , its feel like I have been living on a runaway bus for the last 5 years , because I had no control over it , that I even lost control over myself and my own mind eating habits the lot .


God yes how I wish I could be

a whole lot tougher and dispassionate.

Just so hard when they is a bound there , an invisible emotional bond , that yes one really does have to be dispassionate
Because it can make one emotional crippled , letting in all the bitterness and anger frustration I have been feeling since I posted this , It won’t win that energy thoughts have to be turn around in to something contrastive and positive

Thanks for shareing Michael

 

[Grannie G]

Michael,

I don`t think it is a case of `ganging up` on Janishere, it`s a reaction to a post which, although, possibly having a valid message, is personal and offensive in the extreme.

Janis,

You may have used that style for teaching, but we are not your pupils. We are all equal on TP as carers and sufferers, and need mutual support not lectures.

Your message caused so much anger, that if it did have a valid content, no-one would have been able to see it.

 

[noelphobic]

I had no intention of offending anyone and I don't think I was offensive.

You may not think you were offensive but it is very clear from the replies you have had that other people were offended. You may not have intended to offend anyone but you obviously offended quite a few people.

Brenda

 

[janishere]

I had no intention of offending anyone

I had no intention of offending anyone and I don't think I was offensive.

There are some more things I want to say too.

First of all, the State/Government/Institutions do not have the power many of you seem to think they do to persecute you.

In fact, the reason these entities behave as they do towards the general public is rooted in insecurity and paranoia. "They" are actually afraid of "us" the ordinary people. After all, what can "they" do to us? Hanging is no longer a legal punishment. Imprisonment? The prisons are overcrowded with people who should not be there. There are so many millions of us and maybe not even a million petty bureaucrats trying to control our lives. These bureaucrats haven't got a chance. But, sadly, most people don't seem to realise it. That is fortunate for "them" . But (and here's the rub), "they" know things might change (you only have to look back at the French Revolution of 1789 and the Communist Revolution in Russia and various Peasant Revolts in this country some hundreds of years ago).

All the power "They" are left with is either inducing guilt in you or making you afraid by threatening you with punishments to achieve their end - which is almost exclusively control of financial budgets and nothing to do with caring about us or our poor relatives with AD! "They" in our situations are the Social Services, the NHS and the Local Authorities. And many of us willingly concede "them" that power, though we don't have to!

To the contrary of what some of you seem to think, I have a very high opinion of the people on this forum and the sheer amount of work they do for their loved ones, and all for no payment whatsoever (and why are they not paid I would like to just ask? Aren't they entitled?)

I feel though, that instead of getting angry with each other, and being so afraid of an illusive authority which in reality has very little power against us, I agree with Michael, we might be stronger, more courageous and more independent minded, not just for our own sakes but our loved ones who are ill.

I am also concerned that some here, influenced subliminally by the control freakery they find all around them perpetrated by the government and its lackeys, the bureaucrats, and following their example, may find themselves unawares indulging in and using the same control freakery which is beloved of our government and bureaucrats alike against their own relatives. That really is disturbing, because then "they" will have persuaded some of you purely by trickery, threats and guilt to behave like "them" and thus be their own unpaid enforcers of bad laws and rules.

As for example controlling what a relative spends on the advice of somebody you don't even know at the Public Guardianship Office! It's your relative's money for goodness sake. If the relative wants to burn it all in a heap or burn their own house down, they are free to do it! If on the other hand they want to give it away to their children and grandchildren why shouldn't they? As for fraud, yes there is fraud out there, but hardly ever is it the family doing this - though an unnamed charity (not AS by the way) and government bodies would have you believe it is happening all the time (keep looking over your shoulder stuff). It is a tiny minority that does this sort of thing, most human beings are rather wonderful at bottom.

No, statistically, it is the non-family member that is usually the thief of our relative's money, such as a hired "carer" or social worker. Then again it is only a tiny minority of such people who will do this.

However, I see from some of your posts that "they" have cleverly succeeded in making some of you feel very guilty about spending your relative's money, even when you have an EPA and have done nothing whatsoever wrong! So I say, to some extent, some of you have been brainwashed. But brainwashing is not an irreversible state of mind, not at all. You can simply say to yourself "I refuse to feel guilt when I have done nothing wrong" and "I refuse to let other people subvert my mind by trying to make me feel guilty or threatening me with punishments" and "I will respect my own ability and intelligence by making my own considered decisions, instead of constantly referring to other people for advice which can so often be so wrong" and "I will need courage to make these decisions and I must try not to care or worry about the opinions of others, if I feel I am right".

 

[Gromit]

Tricky

I've just read this thread - and wow this one has certainly got us fired up.
I am currently pursuading Dad to let me and Mum make an appointment at the solicitor (seems to be going well now he realises he has AZ) so that I can take advice on what we need to do to offer some financial protection for the future. So I find this thread very interesting.

I agree in part that we are sometimes wrongly put in a position by those in "authority" who make us feel guilty and force us to make difficult decisions.

I've just spent 2 hours going through reams and reams of fact sheets on council pages to see what benefits my parents are entitled to - alot of it seems to be give with the right hand then take with the left - and yes it does make me angry - especially when I know my parents have worked so hard all of their life and there is the possibility that the Government could end up taking there home to pay for care in the future!

Jen - you say if our loved ones want to give their money away then let them - but its not that easy - from what I can gather there there seem to be all sorts of rules out there - many of which mean that the money isn't really a gift and can be taken back (or so it would seem).

I am very angry about my Dad's diagnosis (just last week) - but there are better methods of dealing with frustration - using TP is an obvious one - to share and to learn, and occasionally to have a good moan (the latter is probably me!!). We all deal with things differently and believe me I am no shrinking violet when it comes to dealing with beaurocracy - however I often learn more from how others tackle issues in a different manner - no one way is ever correct - but together with everyone on TP I feel like I have more chance of getting through.

Did I just rant? Ooops.

Love
G
x

 

[Margarita]

Yes when I got Con out of a lot of money , it was not my family doing it

I never took offence at it janishere, found good valued comments, depends if one take it personally, but then do we have freedom of speech .

So Janishere said

I had no intention of offending anyone and I don't think I was offensive.

Janishere your learn after a while People perception interpretation of your wording is different from how they perceive it , sometime we do have to care what other people think, as on TP , As I am sure you really understand that , as much as I do undertand where your comeing from on the issue your taking about





That’s just it government would put someone in prison , just to shame them , make an example of them that’s way they give us religion to control us.
when your weak and down , that’s when government hits you hard put one in one place , that’s when you really realize what society , government , religion is really like

"I will need courage to make these decisions and I must try not to care or worry about the opinions of others, if I feel I am right".

you are right

So as I look over my shoulder , hope you all support me when they try to lock me up and start a
Democracy AZ
Revolution

 

[noelphobic]

Jen - you say if our loved ones want to give their money away then let them - but its not that easy - from what I can gather there there seem to be all sorts of rules out there - many of which mean that the money isn't really a gift and can be taken back (or so it would seem).
x

That is a really good point. I believe the term that is used is 'deprivation of assets' and this means that if someone gave away substantial amounts of cash or property and then needed to go into a care or nursing home then they would be treated as though they still had the assets in question. Also, where do you draw the line as far as letting someone give their money away goes? If they want to go out in the street and hand out wads of cash then most of us would take action, bearing in mind that not many people would do this if their judgement weren't impaired by their dementia!

Brenda

 

[Gromit]

thanks Brenda

Thanks - I knew there was some kind of rule around gifts - I believe it lasts for 7 years - though after 3 years it reduces yearly by a percentage of what can be claimed back.

Mum and Dad are very worried if one of them should end up in care - they are determined that they don't want their home to be used - they worked so hard to pay off the mortgage and own their own home outright.

However even if Mum and Dad sign over the property to me - the 7 year rule will apply and also it could be seen as deprivation of assets as it is after Dad's diagnosis!

If anything, heaven forbid, was to happen to Mum and she wasn't around for Dad - he wouldn't have a clue about finances - Mum has always looked after that sort of thing. She gives him his pocket money each week (though he has recently started losing it every now and then). Dad doesn't even know how to draw money out of the bank. So it would be inevitable that I would have to manage his finances.

I will continue to read this thread with interest.

Love
G
x

 

[noelphobic]

Thanks - I knew there was some kind of rule around gifts - I believe it lasts for 7 years - though after 3 years it reduces yearly by a percentage of what can be claimed back.
Love
G
x

I believe that the 7 year rule applies to inheritance tax - ie if you give something away and then survive for 7 years or more then that money will not be counted as part of your estate for the purposes of calculating inheritance tax. There is no set time limit for deprivation of assets and theoretically they could go back in time as far as they liked. I'm not sure where that would leave someone who had given their money/property to someone who then did a runner with it and/or spent it!

Brenda