Top up fees in WALES

[Jools1402]

Hi - My Mum (who is 97, has AZ and heart failure) is in a care home in Wales where the finances are a bit different to England. She has been there self funding for 15 months. I have POA for finances.
It has now come to the point where Mum is almost at the £50K threshold for the LA to start paying and I contacted them way back in January. They have made an assessment and have agreed that Mum needs residential care. They have agreed funding of £X amount per week which is unfortunately £300 short of the fees for Mums current home. Mum wants (needs actually) to stay where she is - my brothers and I can see the place is good for her. Adult services asked if we would be prepared to pay the top-up of £300 per week. I verbally agreed thinking this money would come out of Mum's £50K (what the hell else is she going to need this money for at her age?). I told the social worker that this would be the case and she didn't comment. I have been unable to speak to anyone in the finance department yet. It is only since reading around this forum that I realised there may be a problem with this.

So my query is- Is Wales the same as England where only a third party can pay the top up or can Mum pay this out of her own funds (facilitated by me) for herself?

It would seem very unfair for Mum to have to be moved to a cheap, possibly unsuitable care home, leave her friends and all that is familiar - perhaps miles away from family - when she will have £50K sitting doing nothing in the bank

 

[nitram]

Try calling Age Cymru Advice on 0300 303 44 98.

 

[Jools1402]

Thank you @nitram - you are a font of all knowledge

 

[sharon1980]

Hi - My Mum (who is 97, has AZ and heart failure) is in a care home in Wales where the finances are a bit different to England. She has been there self funding for 15 months. I have POA for finances.
It has now come to the point where Mum is almost at the £50K threshold for the LA to start paying and I contacted them way back in January. They have made an assessment and have agreed that Mum needs residential care. They have agreed funding of £X amount per week which is unfortunately £300 short of the fees for Mums current home. Mum wants (needs actually) to stay where she is - my brothers and I can see the place is good for her. Adult services asked if we would be prepared to pay the top-up of £300 per week. I verbally agreed thinking this money would come out of Mum's £50K (what the hell else is she going to need this money for at her age?). I told the social worker that this would be the case and she didn't comment. I have been unable to speak to anyone in the finance department yet. It is only since reading around this forum that I realised there may be a problem with this.

So my query is- Is Wales the same as England where only a third party can pay the top up or can Mum pay this out of her own funds (facilitated by me) for herself?

It would seem very unfair for Mum to have to be moved to a cheap, possibly unsuitable care home, leave her friends and all that is familiar - perhaps miles away from family - when she will have £50K sitting doing nothing in the bank

Hey I hope you dont mind me asking but have you got any resolutions to this .I am in a very similar situation.My mother inlaw is in a home that required top up fees which my borther inlaw had agreed to pay.I have now been contacted an informed he hasnt payed for a long period of time .We are now being asked to pay the £3k of back fees and to continue to pay the £200 pcm going forward .If i had the £200 pcm i would have been paying from the start but myself an my husband dont have this money.
My mother inlaw has full mental capacity , near 50k in savings and a mortgage free house but I am being told we cant use any of this and she will have to move homes to a cheaper one.She and we are more than happy to use her savings to make the top up fee payments , I and my husband are LPA for finance an health so we have full access etc .It seems crazy to me that we would have to send her to a worse home when she has the money yet others in teh home arent paying a penny , Its almost liek she is being penalised for having saved

 

[nitram]

My mother inlaw is in a home that required top up fees which my borther inlaw had agreed to pay.I have now been contacted an informed he hasnt payed for a long period of time .We are now being asked to pay the £3k of back fees and to continue to pay the £200 pcm going forward .If i had the £200 pcm i would have been paying from the start but myself an my husband dont have this mone

Why should you settle brother in law's debt?
Was it a verbal agreement or did he sign that he would pay?
Even if he did not sign but started paying it could be regarded as a deemed contract.

 

[sharon1980]

Why should you settle brother in law's debt?
Was it a verbal agreement or did he sign that he would pay?

Yes he signed to pay it 12 months ago .At the time my MI was already in a home where no top up fees were required.My BI being the idiot he is moved her without our knowledge untill a week before the move and he signed to pay the top ups.
I told the new care home to be and social services that my BI is not reliable enough an will not pay the fees but they did not listen
Low an behold here we are 12 months in an im now being told hes not paid in 10 months , I mean why leave it till now to tell me to start with .
They are saying as myself and my husband are LPA and the BI isnt then its for us to continue on with teh payments.
The home in itself is a better one so we dont want to move her , I just dont understand why i cant use her money to pay the fees

 

[Rayreadynow]

Top-Up fees are voluntary but can only be paid by a Third Party.

 

[Jools1402]

It seems crazy to me that we would have to send her to a worse home when she has the money yet others in teh home arent paying a penny , Its almost liek she is being penalised for having saved

Hi @sharon1980 and welcome to the forum - a great place for advice and support.

No - there has been no resolution as yet. I have told the social worker that paying top ups from Mum's money is not allowed - she had no idea - she checked with their finance department and the message back is that "they don't investigate where the money comes from". In other words they will turn a blind eye to misappropriation of Mum's funds. This would leave me in a very vulnerable position if I have signed a contract agreeing to pay the top up.
Mum's original social worker has left and Mum's case was closed! Now reopened due to my persisting, new social worker allocated and we are starting from scratch - SW has to present Mum's case to panel and financial decisions made. In the meantime Mum's funds are dropping rapidly. Hope you have better luck than me.
Can I just ask why the house isn't being used for funding - does your FIL still live there?

If your BIL does not have POA then surely he has no legal right to be signing the contract and the contract would not be legally binding. The care home should have checked this.

 

[nitram]

It's up to the LA/care home to chase brother for debt, you have no reason to pay.
Going forward with you as LPA is a different matter, you need legal advice.

Does BL have funds?
Has he been sent a demand to pay?

 

[sharon1980]

Hi @sharon1980 and welcome to the forum - a great place for advice and support.

No - there has been no resolution as yet. I have told the social worker that paying top ups from Mum's money is not allowed - she had no idea - she checked with their finance department and the message back is that "they don't investigate where the money comes from". In other words they will turn a blind eye to misappropriation of Mum's funds. This would leave me in a very vulnerable position if I have signed a contract agreeing to pay the top up.
Mum's original social worker has left and Mum's case was closed! Now reopened due to my persisting, new social worker allocated and we are starting from scratch - SW has to present Mum's case to panel and financial decisions made. In the meantime Mum's funds are dropping rapidly. Hope you have better luck than me.
Can I just ask why the house isn't being used for funding - does your FIL still live there?

If your BIL does not have POA then surely he has no legal right to be signing the contract and the contract would not be legally binding. The care home should have checked this.

Thanks Lovely
My BI moving her to a new home without them checking with us is a whole other argument ,The manager of the care home is awful and very rude , however he defiantly has the best home here in our area.This is her 4th care home and i really dont want to put her through the stress of moving again .The poor womens only 74 and its a crying shame the situation she is in .They wont allow her home to be used as her husband still lives there , they are seperated but not legally (very bizzare set up)
I just dont see why i cant use her money , its just going to die wit her an be passed to us and honestly we dont want it ,the BIL might but nor me or hubby do
I have been told by the home and sw i can be prosecuted if i use her money for the fees but still knowone can give me anything in writing

I feel i may end up like you and it going to a panel , its a frustrating joke , yet there are people in this home not paying a penny 😭

 

[sharon1980]

It's up to the LA/care home to chase brother for debt, you have no reason to pay.
Going forward with you as LPA is a different matter, you need legal advice.

Does BL have funds?
Has he been sent a demand to pay?

This is my thoughts I have said we will discuss an deal with top ups going forward but the back fees is nothing to do with us , they have requested we chase the BIL for money which i have refused as he doesnt talk to us and they know this.
Im laughing here even though its not funny but im just like shes not even my mum an im getting all the hassle an the BIL cant even talk to me , just laughable

 

[sharon1980]

Top-Up fees are voluntary but can only be paid by a Third Party.

yes i understand that but what I am asking is , WHY , and where can i get this info in writting and if LPA why cant i use her funds to pay it

 

[nitram]

she checked with their finance department and the message back is that "they don't investigate where the money comes from".

When the limit is reached will they investigate where the money has gone to?
A DD for top up may be challenged.

 

[sharon1980]

It's up to the LA/care home to chase brother for debt, you have no reason to pay.
Going forward with you as LPA is a different matter, you need legal advice.

Does BL have funds?
Has he been sent a demand to pay?

As we understand it he has been chased for payment and has now told them we are paying it

 

[nitram]

yes i understand that but what I am asking is , WHY , and where can i get this info in writting and if LPA why cant i use her funds to pay it

You will have to search for Welsh info.
In England reason is to leave resident with £14250 for funeral expenses and limited bequests

 

[sharon1980]

When the limit is reached will they investigate where the money has gone to?
A DD for top up may be challenged.

Thats what my concern is and I have already said we dont have the money to pay so if we all of a sudden start paying it looks suspicious

 

[sharon1980]

You will have to search for Welsh info.
In England reason is to leave resident with £14250 for funeral expenses and limited bequests

I have searched and searched , spoken with numerous SW , financial department at the council and within the home , I have spoken with a solicitor , doctors and citezans advice and not one person can give me a link to anythink in writting that shows its "law" we cant use her money as LPA to giver her a better quality of life, its just crazy

 

[nitram]

As we understand it he has been chased for payment and has now told them we are paying it

They can cut their losses and sell debt to a debt collection firm.

 

[sharon1980]

They can cut their losses and sell debt to a debt collection firm.

Oh gosh really , I dont like my BIL but i wouldnt want that when his mum has plenty of money to pay and it was her choice to go to this home , she begged to go there

 

[My Mum's Daughter]

I have searched and searched , spoken with numerous SW , financial department at the council and within the home , I have spoken with a solicitor , doctors and citezans advice and not one person can give me a link to anythink in writting that shows its "law" we cant use her money as LPA to giver her a better quality of life, its just crazy

I think that this is what you're looking for.

https://housingcare.org/downloads/kbase/2821.pdf