I am living a nightmare!

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by zoet, Mar 5, 2008.

  1. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    This is my first post on here and I welcome any advice at all on my situation. My dear dad has Alzheimers (diagnosed 2.5 years ago),and has coped really well living on his own so far. When I went through a messy split with my ex about 2 years ago (he threw me out on the streets and I didnt have anywhere for me and my kids to live for ages) I chose not to tell dad what troubles I was going through.I knew he would worry and i thought it might speed up his disease. Little did I know that my spiteful ex would run to him with lies of my "abandonment" of my family and worry him to death.
    I thought I'd straightened it all out with dad not not long ago, and he was so relieved the tales he'd been told were untrue. He confessed he was struggling with his finances and asked me to help look through bank statements as he felt his money was going missing. He also asked me could he come and live with me, something we had agreed to at the time of his diagnosis.
    To my absolute HORROR I have discovered he has made cheques out to an old friend of my deceased mother for THOUSANDS of pounds. I had the bank pull the cheques up and even the writing on some of them is fraudulent. The bank want me to call the police. That was yesterday.
    Today my nightmare climaxed when dad found some papers in his bedroom showing that this "friend" has not only attempted to change his will, but has a registered EPA dated Feb 2007. The proposed will (not sure if its actually been made yet because they couldnt get him to go to a doctors appointment) benefits ONLY the "friend" and guess who....my EX!!!:mad:
    I am dads only child. He is so angry and upset he's been hoodwinked into signing forms and having his money taken. He's still very clear that he wants to live with me and that he wants me to look after his money. He says he remembers signing the forms but he had been told I had "run off" and couldnt be found....UTTER LIES! They all knew exactly where I lived and my phone number, and I was never contacted about the EPA. I sent cards and letters to dad of which I can find no trace. Ive also found an investment made by dad 2 months ago for £10,000 payable to his estate on his death.He didnt know what the hell it was! Now he's worried beyond belief that he will have to go in a home at this "friends'" say so, and we are both worried we will not be able to have the EPA revoked as his biggest problem is not only his short term memory but his speech....he gets really muddled. He KNOWS what he wants but cant express it succinctly, unless hes angry. He's suspected the "friend" for ages but he was scared people would think he'd been stupid, and would think he was just crazy. I am out of my mind with worry. I will go to a solicitor of course asap, but if anyone has had a similar experience I would love to hear from them. :eek:
  2. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Hi and welcome to Talking Point.

    I have to say, I very much hope that there's no one on the forum with a similar experience - the whole thing sounds horrific. A couple of points - you say the EPA has been registered. Now in order to register an EPA it is necessary to not only inform the donor (your father) but also specific relatives (a minimum of 3, which would be you and probably your children). If that wasn't done, I do not believe that the registration is valid, or at the very least there should be fairly good grounds to contest it.

    You didn't say - did you go along with the bank's suggestion to call the police? If you didn't I think you should do. Another resource to investigate: elderabuse (elderabuse.org.uk) who have a help line staffed with specialists.

    I'm be no means an expert, but I think the best advice for you (apart from contacting that solicitor post haste) is to not panic. Easy for me to say, of course, but in general the checks and balances that exist to protect the vulnerable will actually work, although they may take some time to sort out.
  3. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    :)Thank you for understanding. I didnt call the police because firstly dad is scared to death that if this "friend" catches on to the fact we have found her out she will attempt to have him put in a home. This lady is old and very wealthy,(much more wealthy than dad). Shes even had a clause put in the will that should she pass away before him his estate will go to HER children! She even took him to HER solicitor for the will and EPA and made HIM pay for the solicitors services. (She lives 50 odd miles away so it must have been some trip to get him there). I cant find any Will and I cant find his investment details, and hes kept every blummin bit of paper, letter and bill for the last 10 years, so Im tinking she must have them.
    I feel sick just thinking about it. I am so scared he will deteriorate because of the worry, he looked dreadful today. I dont live near him, about 25 miles away, and I dont drive so I wait for "slots" when my partner is off a shift and Im off a shift at the same time, then I pack tea for the kids and we all trek down to dads to discover the latest awful news.
    I thought trying to arrange the timing between selling both our houses and buying a new one for us all to live in was going to be tricky! It seems Ive just opened up a Pandoras Box! Im trying hard not to panic, but as you can see I cant sleep for worry. Do you really think I should call the Police? Would she be able to put him in a home to "control" him? She can afford a solicitors but I dont think I can. Dad says he would pay, but I dont want to deplete his already dwindling savings. I feel we have lots of evidence to support a revocation of the EPA but its a very daunting prospect. And most worrying of all is what's going to happen to dad whilst we battle it out? He's had estate agents in today because he just wants to sell up now! Its just a nightmare.:(
  4. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    #4 jenniferpa, Mar 5, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
    I really can't speak to the situation with regard to the money etc., but I have to say that I can't envision any situation under which she could have him "put away". It can be damn difficult for loving relatives to place someone in a care home when there are all sort of reasons to do so, since there has to be consent by the person being placed. Now some of us have managed the situation, but as I say - at some point the person has to agree. the Alzheimer's society has a help line as well that may be able to give you some pointers.

    Edited to add - personally, yes, I'd involve the police but FIRST I'd first I'd speak to the elder abuse people - you don't want to do anything to make the situation worse.
  5. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    :D Oh thank you Jennifer, that does make me feel better. I wasn't sure what power the EPA gave her and dad most certainly will not agree to go in a home! Its funny actually, when he gets really angry, (and that subject is a sure fire way to make him angry) his speech and thoughts are dead coherent!!! I will definately phone the police then tomorrow and I will also contact the Elder Abuse people you mentioned. *Sighs* Poor dad. There are some truly vile creatures around to abuse such vunerable people. Im sure my solicitor will be able to ease my mind a bit too.....if only they worked 24 hours like my worried mind!:)
  6. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Zoet - the EPA is ONLY about money (not that that's not of concern but..) Whoever has the EPA has no rights with regard to anything else. Can I ask - are you certain that what you have seen is a REGISTERED EPA? I ask because I would think it strange that someone who was intent on fraud would leave that with the person they were defrauding. Of course, criminals aren't always as smart as they think they are, but it seems odd.

    If it truly is registered I think this is the form you need to send to object http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/docs/COP08-web2-1007.pdf

    You'll note that it says "Schedule 4 of the Act provides for the court to dispense with the requirement to give notice. If you are one of the people entitled by the Act to be notified then you can object to the court using this form even if you have not received an EP1PG notice but you find out about the application through other means." In other words, you should have received notification, you haven't and now you're making that point clear.

    However, you can call the COP on 0845 330 2900 and ask them about this point. They are really very helpful.
  7. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    Fabulous Help!

    That really is fabulous help, thank you!:)
    Because of what you've said Ive had another look at the documents. They were sent from the "friends" solicitor and Ive just noticed the accompanying letter says "Following our discussions about when the Power would come into force, we have now amended the documentation so that is restricted to being used only after you become incapable of dealing with your own affairs and when it has been registered. This means that the Power is not valid before that time and therefore you still have full control of your own finances until such time as Mrs. ******* feels it is appropriate to apply for registration. The form attched to this letter is stamped "WE HEREBY CERTIFY THIS DOCUMENT TO BE A TRUE COPY OF THE ORIGINAL" and it appears to be the (copied) EPA agreement.

    The only letters I have after that are demands for payment of £117 in settlement of fees which go up to June 2007, when he appears to have paid them. WOW! So ACTUALLY I dont even know if it HAS been registered! Is that a better situation? If it hasnt been registered (and dad is certainly still looking after his own money)then maybe things arent so tricky?
    Gosh, its a good job you inspired me to look again properly! I read everything in a panic at dads and ive obviously missed that bit.
    It is the bank that supect actual fraud, they pointed it out to me. Dad knows he's been giving her large amounts of money as presents because he's relayed a few times about when shes handed him a present (box of toiletries) at Christmas etc. shes said "I think you should give ME something" and hes just given her a cheque. But she KNOWS he gets muddled with the numerical values (eg, 10, 100, 1000 are confusing) and it looks like shes been filling in her own amounts. (£1000 at Christmas, £3000 on her birthday) and he signs them.
    His handwriting is really bad now and the lady in the bank knows this, (she knows him really well coz he keeps coming in for cash!) and she said the writing int his on a couple of the cheques. They will call the police anyway i think, but they are searching for more cheques made to her over the last 2 years. Hes still paying all his bills perfectly and can remember his pin number. But he did lose his cash card this week and hes been to the bank 4 times to draw money out when he didnt need to last week. The bank are lovely actually and they've made me a third party to his accounts so that they can talk to me about them. So maybe "friend" hasnt registered the EPA yet, because he's managing himself. Does that mean it will be easier to revoke it and make a LPA instead? I'm so grateful for what you have just told me, thank you again.:)
  8. MJK

    MJK Registered User

    Oct 22, 2004
    What a dreadful situation!

    As far I know there is nothing to stop you getting your Dad to make another EPA (though I think it would be an LPA now which would also cover making decisons about his care needs), IF the first one hasn't been registered yet. You DEFINITELY need to get professional advice on this asap, and (my opinion only) I'd have the LPA drawn up by a solicitor rather than doing it yourself to ensure it was watertight (ideally one who is experienced in this area).

    The PGO should be able to give you a lot of help, and confirm whether the EPA has been registered. There's a link here about what to do if you suspect fraud or abuse:


    Can you do something immediate to stop any more "gifts" from your Dad, like removing his cheque book maybe, or getting the bank to put a stop on cheques over a certain amount.

    I guess if the EPA was registered then the Attorneys WOULD be held accountable for the handling of your Dad's money, so maybe it suits them for now while they can manipulate him into giving "gifts".

    I'd DEFINITELY contact the Police as well. AND find out for sure whether a new will has been made.

    At least you've found out about this. I know it must all be hugely stressful, but at least hopfully you'll be able to get everything straightened without any further money disappearing.

    (I thought I'd had more than my fair share of problems with my Mum's EPA - but nothing like this!)

    Good luck.
  9. ishard

    ishard Registered User

    Jul 10, 2007
    I must say I wasnt that shocked ( Ive heard of it before being an ex nurse) by this post but I was extremely saddened.

    Take a deep breath and go at this one step at a time. Let anyone who can help do so. Reassure your dad he doesnt have to do anything he doesnt want.

    The law will catch up with the 'friend' and all will be well eventually but please try to remove your dads cheque book or it could happen again.

    When this gets to court (and it will through the police by the sounds of it) make sure that the judge decrees that the 'friend' repays the monies owed from her assets.

    Sometimes this is forgotten.
  10. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    You've no idea how much better I feel having read your comments today, thank you. After two hours sleep Im going through a list of people to talk to regarding dad now. Im the sort of person who cant settle until Ive physically "done" something or spoken to someone to help solve a problem. Appointment with the solicitor is made for this afternoon, and just now I'm being held on a phone call to BT to try to pay his bill.....34 minutes and counting can you believe it!

    Ive also contacted his building society and and an Insurance company he seems to have given £10,000 to for no aparant reason (!!!) and everyone has been helpful so far. I'm not ringing dad just yet, I'll see him this afternoon. I hate to see him so upset and confused each time I uncover more troubles. He's asked me to have his cheque book and cash card so I know he cant have any more directly removed from his accounts, but this EPA thing is driving me nuts! Im just impatient I guess.I still cant get over how a so called friend could do this to him. Another complication on this already complicated journey! Never mind.....your voices have given me support and hope, and Im going to take a deep breath and keep plodding on. I keep thinking about how much worse this must feel for dad, and that inspires me to do all I can...if I ever get off this held call that is!
  11. Mameeskye

    Mameeskye Registered User

    Aug 9, 2007
    Well done Zoet.

    It is hard enough dealing with this awful disease without complications like this arising. It is amazing how despicable some people can be.

    I hope that the solicitor helps you get sorted out this afternoon.



    PS BT are truly awful aren't they?
  12. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    :D Ehehe...they REALLY are....I gave up counting after 45 minutes! They've had dad on a package for years now and even though his calls came to £3.63 this last month hes ended up paying £50.83! I had to go through FIVE different people to get him on a "light user" package....*sighs what a palaver! Anyway, it's another thing sorted on the list so YAY!
    Thank you for the hug..needed it! Back at ya!:D
  13. CassElle

    CassElle Registered User

    Jun 7, 2005
    Just want to say thinking of you and your dear dad and hoping that
    these evil dispicable people are brought to task sooner than later.

    Hope you progress with this matter without too much frustration and aggravation.

    I wouldnt hesitate to contact the police. If they would stoop so low as to rob a vulnerable elderly man then they deserve all they get an more. We have to protect the most vulnerable section of our society. If they are allowed to get away with this God knows who would fall prey next time.

    Am praying for you both.

  14. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    Wigan, Lancs
    Hi Zoet,

    Just catching up with your thread.

    To answer a couple of your questions, yes, it is much easier to revoke an unregistered EPA than a registered one. Your Dad, provided he has mental capacity (and I am assuming he is no worse than when he signed the EPA) will be able to revoke the EPA through his solicitor. The solicitor will not need the original EPA to revoke it. Once an EPA is registered it would require an order of the Court to have it revoked.

    As far as the will is concerned, I would suggest that the simplest thing for your Dad to do would be to make a new will which will automatically revoke the old will. Again you do not need to have the original of the old will to do this. If you do have the original, your Dad could literally just tear it up, provided again he understands what he is doing.

    I would recommend that if you do take your Dad to a solicitor, that you give the solicitor the whole story, and a copy of the old will. The solicitor will most likely question your Dad a little more closely about his wishes and reasons for changing his will, which might prove important if the new will is ever questioned in the future.
  15. zoet

    zoet Registered User

    #15 zoet, Mar 5, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
    How right you are! Thank you for your words of support. My lovely dad has never done anything harmful to anyone his whole life. He remains a sweet, caring and generous man, and I will do all that i can to protect him from scum such as this evil woman. Im hoping what goes around comes around, but in the end I reckon at least I can close my eyes at night and rest knowing Ive done my best. How they ever live with themselves is a mystery. Perhaps they are the ones with the mental disability!.:rolleyes:
    And gosh Sue thats EXTREMELY helpful info Ive just read on your thread and most reassuring. I will use that in a couple of hours when take dad to the solicitors...THANKYOU LOADS!
  16. Clive

    Clive Registered User

    Nov 7, 2004
    Hi Zoet

    Just to let you know that you are not the only one this has happened to. I hope that can be some comfort.

    Fifteen years ago a friend of my Maiden Aunt pretended that she was her niece and took her to a solicitor and had an EPA and a new Will drawn up. It is a very long story but in my Aunties case Social Services sorted it all out, including cancelling the EPA.

    You have gathered more information about what to do in one afternoon than I managed in six months. You are doing a good job for your dad.

    I am sure you are going about sorting this out in the correct manner.

    Best Wishes

  17. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #17 Margarita, Mar 5, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008

    I find it all very disgusting that someone can draw up an EPO go to a solicitor not even being a member of the family , even have a will change . with out asking for proof of they ID .

    when I had a EPOA draw up by my mother solicitor I had to get an independent person to sigh it also, that new me and my mother , that was not family so was a witness to my mother signature and mine .

    I am confused with your posting as I thought you said it was your ex that was doing this to your father .because you then say
    so when you say * they * is it , your ex and his partner conspiring together to defraud your father out of his money ?
  18. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #18 Margarita, Mar 5, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
    As did you not know when you give someone your EPA they can sale your property for you .

    ( ENDURING Power of Attorney )

    Then if you gave someone your general Power of attorney POA .

    I do hope your solicitor sort it all out for you and revokes the last EPA
  19. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Hi again.

    It looks like you've managed to find out that the situation isn't quite as bad as you feared, which is good news. Hopefully you'll be able to sleep a little better tonight, but if you suddenly wake up and think "rats - I knew I meant to ask that" someone should be around. It's always a shock when we find someone we love has been taken advantage of - it seems so "bare-faced" somehow. Is it possible that this woman really did believe you were out of the picture? Not that that's any excuse.
  20. ishard

    ishard Registered User

    Jul 10, 2007
    Zoet please, please, please contact the police first thing tomorrow morning. Get everything rolling.

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