Thanks Dave63, I made notes for DH and I think he will try and have a chat with nursing home before online meeting. I think the Social Worker may call him too or he can call her if he has any questions now. He has a link to open and complete after the meeting, I assume just for feedback. I don't know how it will last, just hope he doesn't have issues due to work!
Funded Nursing Care to offset care home fees: applied 10 months ago waiting for decision
- Thread starter doingmybest1
- Start date
A full CHC MDT meeting can last quite a while. Ours were around two hours.
Your MiLs needs will be discussed for each of the domains with evidence provided by the social worker and care home nurse. Your DH will also be able to contribute to the discussion with regards to your MiLs needs and will be asked if he agrees with the scoring of each domain. Don't be afraid to speak up if there is something he disagrees with and if he does disagree with anything it's important to make sure that the nurse assessor notes it in the DST (the form they use to record everything during the assessment).
Just as a reminder, your DH can ask for a link to the meeting to be sent to you if he would like some support during the assessment.
i think this conversation has drifted from FNC to CHC (assessed through the same process). These comments are about FNC.
In our case FNC (as opposed to CHC) went directly to the care home to offset their additional costs (not ours). I thought that was normal? I had nothing to do with the application, the nursing home managed it all.
At first we were self-funding, later funded under the Section 117 aftercare provision of the Mental Health Act by the local authority. This is different from CHC from the NHS. Aside from the fact that it covered funding, it is not a process I would wish on anyone. As far as I can remember FNC was awarded both prior to and after return from sectioning but, as I said, the money went to the care home as an additional resource and did not affect what we paid in any way.
In our case FNC (as opposed to CHC) went directly to the care home to offset their additional costs (not ours). I thought that was normal? I had nothing to do with the application, the nursing home managed it all.
At first we were self-funding, later funded under the Section 117 aftercare provision of the Mental Health Act by the local authority. This is different from CHC from the NHS. Aside from the fact that it covered funding, it is not a process I would wish on anyone. As far as I can remember FNC was awarded both prior to and after return from sectioning but, as I said, the money went to the care home as an additional resource and did not affect what we paid in any way.
I realise now that the meeting I thought was a DST was a pre assessment, as pointed out elsewhere, it was As and Bs, a DoLS assessment was also carried out just last week. Like @doingmybest1 I hadn't appreciated at the start, that FNC could result. I am not sure of the time scale between the 2 hour initial assessment, and whether a DST will be recommended. No indication of time scales were given. IF we get to DST stage I will ask to be present, that is a good idea.
@doingmybest1 did you get to grips with what had happened in your mother's case? Is she eligible for any other allowances?
I read your initial post and sympathise with much of what you say and are going through, and I agree that having PoA on finances (which I have for my MiL), itself can take hours of your life, I had an 8 week long 'discussion' (ie emails and phone calls lasting that long before they finally agreed they were at fault) with Virgin about a phone bill for example. I have been through all direct debits and cancelled those I can, but British Gas won't cancel the ridiculously expensive insurances on all white goods etc. that my very cautious MiL has been paying for 10 years or more, until the policy finishes in 7 weeks time - I rang them in March.
My own parents are relatively fit and healthy and should they need carers, or a nursing home, they will be self funders - as was my aunt who paid 3 years fees in full until she died peacefully aged 92 of 'old age' according to her death certificate. I don't think she would have been eligible for CHC, she was remarkably fit accept for dementia and long term mental health issues. That's not to diminish how both took their tole and was why she was in a home.
@doingmybest1 did you get to grips with what had happened in your mother's case? Is she eligible for any other allowances?
I read your initial post and sympathise with much of what you say and are going through, and I agree that having PoA on finances (which I have for my MiL), itself can take hours of your life, I had an 8 week long 'discussion' (ie emails and phone calls lasting that long before they finally agreed they were at fault) with Virgin about a phone bill for example. I have been through all direct debits and cancelled those I can, but British Gas won't cancel the ridiculously expensive insurances on all white goods etc. that my very cautious MiL has been paying for 10 years or more, until the policy finishes in 7 weeks time - I rang them in March.
My own parents are relatively fit and healthy and should they need carers, or a nursing home, they will be self funders - as was my aunt who paid 3 years fees in full until she died peacefully aged 92 of 'old age' according to her death certificate. I don't think she would have been eligible for CHC, she was remarkably fit accept for dementia and long term mental health issues. That's not to diminish how both took their tole and was why she was in a home.
Hi Everyone
Thank you to everyone who replied to my post. My apologies for not engaging, work-life balance and illness got the better of me. Apologies for just specific mentions but again, thank you to everyone who posted a reply.
@Dave63 thank you so much for your links and the information you've shared, I'll be reading them in detail tomorrow!!! Hearing from you loud and clear that I need to dig deeper and stand my ground! You've also given me more info that helps me understand this process which I truly did not when I posted this thread.
@whoknkows don't worry, yes, I think you may have diverted my thread into what happens with CHC assessments but that's fine because in my Mum's case the 2 are linked and you clearly were as confused by this process as I was, so it's great you asked the questions and got replies as this will help others going through this process in the future when they do a search for CHC.
So just to give an update.
Last weekend, after almost 11 months to the day, of waiting, I received a letter from the Integrated Care Board (ICB) for Mum's location area.
Seems that the care home did indeed arrange a CHC assessment (done with 2 registered nurses supporting Mum's ward at her care home) the moment that she went into their care and they submitted that to the ICB only a few days later for their assessment.
It has taken the ICB almost 11 months to come back with their assessment. The letter does start by saying "our apologies" for taking so long but doesn't explain why it has taken them so long.
The letter says that Mum's CHC request has been rejected because she scored all "C" based on their Decision Support Tool (DST). It also says "and she has been found not elligible for the Funded Nursing Care Contribution (FNC)". The letter does not say why she isn't ellgible for FCN and I'll look at links @Dave63 has given to understand that.
So yes, it does seem that CHC and FNC are linked to the Mum's assessment done within days when she went into the care home. After 11 months the ICB have said regarding CHC outcome Mum is too healthy to qualify (which we and care home said would always be the case because there is no recognition that Alzheimer's is a brain disease affecting the person's ability to carry out life even though Mum can't live on her own and GP/Emergency Services and external agency carers said she can't live on her own - she hasn't got the mental capacity which is severely affecting her physical abilities). However, the care home at the time firmly believed that Mum would get FNC and because of the way the care home do their fees, if Mum got FNC, they would offset that from her care home fees. I've looked back on the agreement I signed with the care home and yes it is very clear that they will offset any money received as FNC against the fees that Mum is currently paying for her care.
I appreciate from the posts shared that perhaps not all care homes do this, but in our case, it was something I looked into before admitting Mum, and is stipulated in their terms and conditions (which I singed) so I knew it was something that if we got, we could make sure her fees were reduced.
So now as mum scored all points against assessment "C" in ICB Decision Support Tool, yes @Dave63 I'll be digging down deeper into that.
But also, apologies, as someone also replied about their CHC assessment for loved ones being incorrect and then having to start again, I'll just share with you all what I've been told by the care home and what actually was in Mum's assessment!!!
So the care home have said to me they will do an annual assessment on Mum and submit to ICB for assessment as her Alzheimer's journey means that she will deteriorate and will become eligible for CHC funding purely because of the AZ at some point. And they have said to me that once she reaches the point where she is no longer mobile, and even before she is clearly bed-ridden and can't feed herself - she'll definitely get CHC funding for the rest of her living life even if her heart is good, no diabetes etc, and that they will immediately her situation changes, apply for CHC funding again outside of the yearly assessments.
What I did say to the care home administrators was "this must be a nightmare for you. I guess people have been admitted and died waiting for this assessment". They sadly confirmed this has been the case. I asked what happened to the money and they said they have a process in place to ensure that all monies that person was eligble for are claimed back and offset against care home fees and given back to the executors of the estate.
I wonder how many other care homes / exectutors etc are are aware of this.
Back to Mum's interesting case about the information I was sent regarding her CHC assessment which someone else touched on in my thread.
Aside from the covering letter, I received a copy of the form the nurses submitted with the ICG score assessment and summary.
I went through the 23 pages, and I didn't recognise the assessment of Mum at all. Some pages did seem to relate to Mum but others very clearly were about another person!!! And then when I looked at the summary page - it mentioned another person's name and assessment for them -- and not my Mum's!!!
I then had to go back to the care home to get them to check what they had submitted to ICB and that it really was all about Mum and they confirmed on their records - it was only about Mum.
For some reason, yet to be explained, it seems that the ICB have muddled up my Mum's assessment with those of another person. So actually, her assessment isn't valid.
I think someone earlier posted that they hit a similar issue and then had to go through the whole process again. And maybe wait for months or in our case almost a year just to get the results.
Whatever is happening at a government level/council/ICB level, it's truly rubbish.
And that's also why in my original thread I said we need to complain about this to govt, council, MP etc and is there a petition online to get this looked at?
It's so not fair that Mum is paying over £80k for her care because she has some savings in place as a result of her house sale. She'll run out of that money in a year. The money that she and Dad built up to benefit the family will be lost just because Mum has Dementia and it isn't recognised by the govt as a "disease" and so Mum is paying for her care as if she just can't be bothered and wants to be looked after for no real reason. Mum needs looking after because she isn't safe, her brain has deteriorated so much that she can't even live with me being her carer if I was 24/7 living in her house. I can't be a 24/7 carer - I'd just be run ragged with this disease and besides which I'm in my mid-60s and need to carry on working as I don't get a pension etc.
I'm happy that Mum is looked after and is taken care of and yes it's costing an eye-watering amount of money but this thread was also about why is this happening to us as people who are looking after our loved ones with AZ having we're having to do so must research and there is no help out there.
Just also to point out that I did contact Social Services initially to get an assessment after the Ambulance service complained to her GP on many occasions, and the GP agreed after we'd got regularly carers in, that she couldn't live at home anymore. I put in a request for an assessment by them and they came back to me 8 months after I submitted the request and despite chasing saying that they didn't have the "resource" to do an assessment. When they finally did have a "resource" they phoned me and said -- "How much money does your Mum have in savings --- let's end the conversation here as we don't deal with people like your Mum who have "savings"."
So basically Social Services dropped her and did nothing.
I was so desperate for advice I reached out to her GP and was told, there's nothing we can do.
I then reached out to her solicitors who registered her will, LPA and had always looked after her house transactions, etc and their first question was "How long will your Mum live?".
How on earth do any of us looking after our loved ones deal with these agencies? As @Dave63 suggests, we're on our own fighting battles and spending time on researching, arguing as if we are mini-laywers with no training or support.
It's hard.
I don't have an answer.
But perhaps someone further down the line can contribute to help me resolve this and others like me?
Thank you again to all of you have posted to this thread, and again, my apologies if I've gone off on a bit of rant.
Thank you to everyone who replied to my post. My apologies for not engaging, work-life balance and illness got the better of me. Apologies for just specific mentions but again, thank you to everyone who posted a reply.
@Dave63 thank you so much for your links and the information you've shared, I'll be reading them in detail tomorrow!!! Hearing from you loud and clear that I need to dig deeper and stand my ground! You've also given me more info that helps me understand this process which I truly did not when I posted this thread.
@whoknkows don't worry, yes, I think you may have diverted my thread into what happens with CHC assessments but that's fine because in my Mum's case the 2 are linked and you clearly were as confused by this process as I was, so it's great you asked the questions and got replies as this will help others going through this process in the future when they do a search for CHC.
So just to give an update.
Last weekend, after almost 11 months to the day, of waiting, I received a letter from the Integrated Care Board (ICB) for Mum's location area.
Seems that the care home did indeed arrange a CHC assessment (done with 2 registered nurses supporting Mum's ward at her care home) the moment that she went into their care and they submitted that to the ICB only a few days later for their assessment.
It has taken the ICB almost 11 months to come back with their assessment. The letter does start by saying "our apologies" for taking so long but doesn't explain why it has taken them so long.
The letter says that Mum's CHC request has been rejected because she scored all "C" based on their Decision Support Tool (DST). It also says "and she has been found not elligible for the Funded Nursing Care Contribution (FNC)". The letter does not say why she isn't ellgible for FCN and I'll look at links @Dave63 has given to understand that.
So yes, it does seem that CHC and FNC are linked to the Mum's assessment done within days when she went into the care home. After 11 months the ICB have said regarding CHC outcome Mum is too healthy to qualify (which we and care home said would always be the case because there is no recognition that Alzheimer's is a brain disease affecting the person's ability to carry out life even though Mum can't live on her own and GP/Emergency Services and external agency carers said she can't live on her own - she hasn't got the mental capacity which is severely affecting her physical abilities). However, the care home at the time firmly believed that Mum would get FNC and because of the way the care home do their fees, if Mum got FNC, they would offset that from her care home fees. I've looked back on the agreement I signed with the care home and yes it is very clear that they will offset any money received as FNC against the fees that Mum is currently paying for her care.
I appreciate from the posts shared that perhaps not all care homes do this, but in our case, it was something I looked into before admitting Mum, and is stipulated in their terms and conditions (which I singed) so I knew it was something that if we got, we could make sure her fees were reduced.
So now as mum scored all points against assessment "C" in ICB Decision Support Tool, yes @Dave63 I'll be digging down deeper into that.
But also, apologies, as someone also replied about their CHC assessment for loved ones being incorrect and then having to start again, I'll just share with you all what I've been told by the care home and what actually was in Mum's assessment!!!
So the care home have said to me they will do an annual assessment on Mum and submit to ICB for assessment as her Alzheimer's journey means that she will deteriorate and will become eligible for CHC funding purely because of the AZ at some point. And they have said to me that once she reaches the point where she is no longer mobile, and even before she is clearly bed-ridden and can't feed herself - she'll definitely get CHC funding for the rest of her living life even if her heart is good, no diabetes etc, and that they will immediately her situation changes, apply for CHC funding again outside of the yearly assessments.
What I did say to the care home administrators was "this must be a nightmare for you. I guess people have been admitted and died waiting for this assessment". They sadly confirmed this has been the case. I asked what happened to the money and they said they have a process in place to ensure that all monies that person was eligble for are claimed back and offset against care home fees and given back to the executors of the estate.
I wonder how many other care homes / exectutors etc are are aware of this.
Back to Mum's interesting case about the information I was sent regarding her CHC assessment which someone else touched on in my thread.
Aside from the covering letter, I received a copy of the form the nurses submitted with the ICG score assessment and summary.
I went through the 23 pages, and I didn't recognise the assessment of Mum at all. Some pages did seem to relate to Mum but others very clearly were about another person!!! And then when I looked at the summary page - it mentioned another person's name and assessment for them -- and not my Mum's!!!
I then had to go back to the care home to get them to check what they had submitted to ICB and that it really was all about Mum and they confirmed on their records - it was only about Mum.
For some reason, yet to be explained, it seems that the ICB have muddled up my Mum's assessment with those of another person. So actually, her assessment isn't valid.
I think someone earlier posted that they hit a similar issue and then had to go through the whole process again. And maybe wait for months or in our case almost a year just to get the results.
Whatever is happening at a government level/council/ICB level, it's truly rubbish.
And that's also why in my original thread I said we need to complain about this to govt, council, MP etc and is there a petition online to get this looked at?
It's so not fair that Mum is paying over £80k for her care because she has some savings in place as a result of her house sale. She'll run out of that money in a year. The money that she and Dad built up to benefit the family will be lost just because Mum has Dementia and it isn't recognised by the govt as a "disease" and so Mum is paying for her care as if she just can't be bothered and wants to be looked after for no real reason. Mum needs looking after because she isn't safe, her brain has deteriorated so much that she can't even live with me being her carer if I was 24/7 living in her house. I can't be a 24/7 carer - I'd just be run ragged with this disease and besides which I'm in my mid-60s and need to carry on working as I don't get a pension etc.
I'm happy that Mum is looked after and is taken care of and yes it's costing an eye-watering amount of money but this thread was also about why is this happening to us as people who are looking after our loved ones with AZ having we're having to do so must research and there is no help out there.
Just also to point out that I did contact Social Services initially to get an assessment after the Ambulance service complained to her GP on many occasions, and the GP agreed after we'd got regularly carers in, that she couldn't live at home anymore. I put in a request for an assessment by them and they came back to me 8 months after I submitted the request and despite chasing saying that they didn't have the "resource" to do an assessment. When they finally did have a "resource" they phoned me and said -- "How much money does your Mum have in savings --- let's end the conversation here as we don't deal with people like your Mum who have "savings"."
So basically Social Services dropped her and did nothing.
I was so desperate for advice I reached out to her GP and was told, there's nothing we can do.
I then reached out to her solicitors who registered her will, LPA and had always looked after her house transactions, etc and their first question was "How long will your Mum live?".
How on earth do any of us looking after our loved ones deal with these agencies? As @Dave63 suggests, we're on our own fighting battles and spending time on researching, arguing as if we are mini-laywers with no training or support.
It's hard.
I don't have an answer.
But perhaps someone further down the line can contribute to help me resolve this and others like me?
Thank you again to all of you have posted to this thread, and again, my apologies if I've gone off on a bit of rant.
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