Is It Still Possible That I Could See My Friend Over Xmas?

[MaNaAk]

Hello Everyone.

I've just noticed that the prime minister has said that if you feel vulnerable over Xmas you could still meet up. I will not be seeing my brother who I was in a social bubble with after Monday and my friend is actually separated from her husband and only meets with him outside. She suffers from epilepsy and can get low and my anxiety/depression (mild/moderate) has been is there any chance we could still meet up. I haven't been getting on with my brother as you all know but I don't have the heart to tell him that I don't want to be in a social bubble with him.

MaNaAk

 

[Beate]

The rules say that you can meet your friend (one at a time) outside in a park, even in Tier 4, if you keep travel and the meet to a minimum of time.

Edit: You can change a support bubble!
"Changing your support bubble
From 2 December you may change your support bubble provided that:

your household, or the one you intend to form a new support bubble with, meets at least one of the eligibility rules
the other household is not already part of a support bubble which they intend to remain a part of
If you decide to change your support bubble, you should treat your previous bubble as a separate household for 10 days before forming a new bubble. This means following the rules on meeting people from other households in the tier you are in."

It's really hard to keep up with what's allowed or not allowed anymore!

Living safely with respiratory infections, including COVID-19

Guidance for living safely with respiratory infections, including coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.gov.uk

 

[MaNaAk]

Dear Beate,

Yes I've read this and chatted with my brother's partner and my friend and she is still coming albeit without her ex-husband. So all's well that ends well and I've probably put my brother off coming to look at the stuff in the loft. No matter what's been going on I still love my brothers.

MaNaAk

 

[nita]

But it also says this: note: "your existing support bubble".

If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must follow the rules below from Sunday 20 December. This means that you cannot meet other people indoors, including over the Christmas period, unless you live with them, or they are part of your existing support bubble. Outdoors, you can only meet one person from another household. These rules will not be relaxed for Christmas.

It's all very confusing.
And this:-

How support bubbles relate to other types of bubble​

A support bubble is different to a childcare bubble and a Christmas bubble. Being in a support bubble does not stop you from forming a childcare bubble or a Christmas bubble.

It's totally confusing - all these bubbles. "I'm forever blowing bubbles........"

 

[nita]

Christmas bubble​

"You can form a Christmas bubble between 23 and 27 December. There is a 3-household limit on a Christmas bubble.

Existing support bubbles count as one household towards the 3-household limit. This means if you are in a support bubble, you can collectively form a Christmas bubble with 2 other households. You should keep your Christmas bubble as small as possible."

Goodness knows if the Tier 4 restrictions now override this.

 

[nita]

If your brother wasn't already in a support bubble with his "father-in-law" I don't think he should be seeing him, he should be with you! Also, is his FIL elderly - I don't think he should put him at risk. Not that you can tell your brother anything!

 

[MartinWL]

Reminder to all: This is all guidance. The actual law has not yet been published at 2330 Saturday.

 

[nita]

This is from Sky News:-

"Mr Johnson ditched his previous plans for a five-day relaxation of COVID rules over Christmas and told people in Tier 4 areas they will no longer be allowed to form "Christmas bubbles" with other households."

I think the actual guidance which supersedes previous guidance is in the shaded box I first put on this thread "If you live in a Tier 4 area" etc. - Christmas bubbles no longer apply.

Sorry, if I've confused anyone.

 

[Lynmax]

As far as I can make out, if in Tier Three, I can still spend a few hours with my sister's family and my daughter, just six of us, on the 25th, with no overnight stays. For the first time, I’m struggling to understand the rules but hopefully, it will become clearer tomorrow.

For once, living in the NW has its advantages but I suspect it won’t be long before the new virus strain spreads country wide as lots of people have left London tonight to get to their families before the Tier Four restrictions kick in.

I just hope nothing stops my planned pod visit at Mums care home on Thursday. I am thinking that I might take in my presents on Monday in case the home want to quarantine them.

 

[MaNaAk]

I've checked the rules and I'm okay providing there are ten days between changing the support bubble.

MaNaAk

 

[Lone Wolf]

Reminder to all: This is all guidance. The actual law has not yet been published at 2330 Saturday.

Question for MartinWL or anyone else that can answer.

In relation to Tiers 1 - 3, care home visiting guidelines are issued by the Department of Health & Social Care, but are more restrictive than the enacted regulations - The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020.

The Regulations provide (for example, Tier 3 Schedule 3 indoor visiting exceptions at 5.3 ):

..... "that the person concerned (“P”) is visiting a person (“V”) receiving treatment in a hospital or staying in a hospice or care home, or is accompanying V to a medical appointment and P is—
(a) a member of V's household, (b) a close family member of V, or (c) a friend of V."

Does anyone know the legal basis of the Department of Health & Social Care guidelines?

 

[lemonbalm]

As far as I can make out, if in Tier Three, I can still spend a few hours with my sister's family and my daughter, just six of us, on the 25th, with no overnight stays. For the first time, I’m struggling to understand the rules but hopefully, it will become clearer tomorrow.

For once, living in the NW has its advantages but I suspect it won’t be long before the new virus strain spreads country wide as lots of people have left London tonight to get to their families before the Tier Four restrictions kick in.

I just hope nothing stops my planned pod visit at Mums care home on Thursday. I am thinking that I might take in my presents on Monday in case the home want to quarantine them.

I checked with mum's care home and the manager did say 72 hours was required to "quarantine" gifts so taking on Monday is a good idea.

 

[Louise7]

Question for MartinWL or anyone else that can answer.

In relation to Tiers 1 - 3, care home visiting guidelines are issued by the Department of Health & Social Care, but are more restrictive than the enacted regulations - The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020.

The Regulations provide (for example, Tier 3 Schedule 3 indoor visiting exceptions at 5.3 ):

..... "that the person concerned (“P”) is visiting a person (“V”) receiving treatment in a hospital or staying in a hospice or care home, or is accompanying V to a medical appointment and P is—
(a) a member of V's household, (b) a close family member of V, or (c) a friend of V."

Does anyone know the legal basis of the Department of Health & Social Care guidelines?

@Lone Wolf In simple terms, the legislation states that visits to someone in a hospital, hospice or care home are exempt from the legislation – they are not 'illegal'. The DHSC Guidance explains how safe visits to care homes could be facilitated, and states that “providers should facilitate visiting as prescribed in the guidance wherever it is possible to do so” and also undertake individual risk assessments. So to answer your question in relation to the 'legal basis of the DHSC Guidance' it simply follows on from / is 'underpinned' by the legislation - if care home visits were deemed 'illegal' then the DHSC Guidance wouldn't exist.

With regards to care home visits within Tier 4, the new guidance states: “Close-contact indoor visits supported by testing, which are allowed in Tiers 1-3, will not be allowed in Tier 4”.

If a care home is not facilitating visits as per the DHSC Guidance then John’s Campaign has published details of how this could be challenged, dependent on the reasons given by the care home for not facilitating visits (bear in mind that the reference to testing within this document does not reflect the new Tier 4 guidance):

https://johnscampaign.org.uk/post/j...Yt3E8-Lz9gbmZZIEQtkUa4oBfTgwmfT4L1O6mIxWLy-5Y

 

[Lone Wolf]

Thank you for responding Louise7.

 

[imthedaughter]

I've checked the rules and I'm okay providing there are ten days between changing the support bubble.

MaNaAk

It sounds to me that your friend is not vulnerable from a covid point of view but would greatly benefit from being with you on Christmas day so if you can I think you should go ahead with plans.

I m not saying this as a rule breaker: We have been self isolating in order to have the inlaws over but we are now tier four so have cancelled our plans. I believe we'd be perfectly safe as we wouldn't be going out at all and have all isolated etc but it would be breking about five rules and we've decided not to do it.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

But it also says this: note: "your existing support bubble".

If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must follow the rules below from Sunday 20 December. This means that you cannot meet other people indoors, including over the Christmas period, unless you live with them, or they are part of your existing support bubble. Outdoors, you can only meet one person from another household. These rules will not be relaxed for Christmas.

It's all very confusing.
And this:-

How support bubbles relate to other types of bubble​

A support bubble is different to a childcare bubble and a Christmas bubble. Being in a support bubble does not stop you from forming a childcare bubble or a Christmas bubble.

It's totally confusing - all these bubbles. "I'm forever blowing bubbles........"

I'm trying to work out if this applies to my situation! My boyfriend lives (on his own) down south - now in Tier 4. I live (on my own) in High Peak, currently in Tier 3.

From the start, we formed a support bubble and he comes up here for a couple of days every 2/3 weeks. Our intention was that he'd come up and stay for a few days over Christmas, which was all fine ....until yesterday's announcement! Now I'm not sure. Tier 4 means he shouldn't leave the area, meet anyone indoors or stay anywhere overnight. But @nita 's post suggests our existing bubble would trump those rules.... or would it?

Could he still come here and stay for a few days? We'd be sticking to Tier 3 rules once he got here... What does anyone think?

 

[Jessbow]

I guess you have to quantify a ''support bubble'' really.
Not sure how a boyfriend from down south ( tier 4) is providing support really.


You can form a support bubble with another household of any size if:

• you live by yourself – even if carers visit you to provide support
• you are the only adult in your household who does not need continuous care as a result of a disability
• your household includes a child who is under the age of one or was under that age on 2 December 2020
• your household includes a child with a disability who requires continuous care and is under the age of 5, or was under that age on 2 December 2020
• you are aged 16 or 17 living with others of the same age and without any adults
• you are a single adult living with one or more children who are under the age of 18 or were under that age on 12 June 2020

You should not form a support bubble with a household that is part of another support bubble.

Seems it depends on who has been mixing with/supporting who.

Can we all suddenly chance our bubble because it suits us for christmas? i am not sure.

presumably, someone from tier 4, if they really cannot stay out, should follow tier 4 regs

 

[nitram]

@Jaded'n'faded
Guidance updated yesterday

Making a Christmas bubble with friends and family

www.gov.uk

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

I guess you have to quantify a ''support bubble'' really.
Not sure how a boyfriend from down south ( tier 4) is providing support really.


You can form a support bubble with another household of any size if:

• you live by yourself – even if carers visit you to provide support
• you are the only adult in your household who does not need continuous care as a result of a disability
• your household includes a child who is under the age of one or was under that age on 2 December 2020
• your household includes a child with a disability who requires continuous care and is under the age of 5, or was under that age on 2 December 2020
• you are aged 16 or 17 living with others of the same age and without any adults
• you are a single adult living with one or more children who are under the age of 18 or were under that age on 12 June 2020

You should not form a support bubble with a household that is part of another support bubble.

Seems it depends on who has been mixing with/supporting who.

Can we all suddenly chance our bubble because it suits us for christmas? i am not sure.

presumably, someone from tier 4, if they really cannot stay out, should follow tier 4 regs

To clarify, back in the early days it was permitted for couples living separately (like us) to form a bubble.

We have maintained this closed bubble, neither of us is in a support bubble with anyone else, in fact we both live like hermits!

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

@Jaded'n'faded
Guidance updated yesterday

Making a Christmas bubble with friends and family

www.gov.uk

Thanks @nitram . I'm still struggling a little...!

In Section 2.1 it says:
If you are in an existing support bubble with someone who lives in a Tier 4 area, you can see each other on Christmas Day.

That would seem definitive but (for us) goes against all the other Tier 4 rules about not travelling, etc. And it also seems to suggest he could visit me on Christmas day but not stay overnight here or remain any longer than the one day.

Section 9 seems to give us a definitive NO! It says:
You must not visit or leave a Tier 4 area in order to see others over Christmas or on Christmas Day. Though that seems to refer to Christmas bubbles not existing ones.

I guess that's an overall 'NO' then? The info seems somewhat contradictory to me.