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I really need legal advice to help my father, can anyone help?

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
sleepless Garnuft

Here is a scenario for you.

My father has a form of dementia, in that he was slowing down.

He did have a fall, brought on by a urinary infection, which he got when he fell in the bath, mother knowing he wasn't very well didn't bother going to the doctors as its 'not worth it, people like that deteriorate'.

He had another serious fall hospitalised with a blood infection taboot!

My father's dementia was slight! - he had shakes - worsened with the constant talking at him and around him that he was incapable to the point that he got submissive and believed it. BUT when in the company of someone for any length of time that supported him, his trembles stopped, he became assertive and was more capable than he was 2 weeks beforehand.

So, what if, the diagnosis of my father is based on the findings of my mother and siblings? to them he is a vegetable!
BUT I and hubby see a different person. And we are the bad guys!

So, scenario and medical treatment phase. WHO hurts him the most, those exagerating, or those telling the truth?

Forget family politics, this is a persons life. one side know the truth, the other side is exagerating for their own purposes. We know we are telling the truth!

So medicate ------- The vegetable? - or the side that have coherent conversations that are pushed to one side as the mental capacity act,and whom it is there to protect, can be overidden in 'certain quarters' by 'close knit communities'.

Medicate! - There in lies the problem. Because every medic/ nurse is stating differing forms of dementia, based on a one sided input. There are always 2 sides and the side which has coherent talks is dismissed!
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
Sorry, I am completely naïve in this area, but will continue typing anyway if your father is continually asking to leave then shouldn't someone be listening to him at the care home and start/report Deprivation of Liberty, especially if there is no diagnosis yet. Long story short I only mention this because a friend of mine was in a similar situation and at some point a social worker and solicitor got involved. When and how this happened I have no idea, back to my naivety and so could be completely wrong, but at the very least why not check out this act and see if it is relevant to you and your father.

If there is no way of repairing your relationship with your mother over this, then there is no hope of fulfilling your promise to your father which must be heart breaking for you, so sorry.
My point exactly! - I've written to the social care manager to state deprivation of liberty and still have had no response.

THANK YOU, thank you, thank you. you are the first person to mention this and I am going down this route, but the parocial close knit of this community is putting up bariers everywhere. - Also from 1 of the replys I think one of the nurses in my fathers carehome is on line!!!!!! I'm once again a bad guy!
Thank you - That is the route I'm on at the moment and I would love it if your friend could tell me what to do next!

Honestly, thank you so much for your reply. I too am niaive
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
11,954
London
What makes you think that any of us longstanding members with many replies under our belt is a nurse from your father's care home?

No one here thinks you're the bad guy but I believe your father could do with some peace and quiet instead of having family members going to war over him, and him being told everything about it, from each side.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
OK I'm speaking as a moderator here: It is extremely (as in vanishingly) unlikely that one of the respondents in this thread is employed in your father's care home. I think everyone who has responded to you are family carers with a long history on this forum. If you wish to report a post do so using the report button.

But from everything I have read, our members are simply trying to explain to you that what you are doing and the way you are behaving is unlikely to result in your father leaving this home.

Now if the LA are paying for this placement, if you are willing to take your father into your home, if your mother is prepared to agree and if you are prepared to facilitate visits from your relatives in the event you do achieve this you might be successful. But as it stands you are not helping your father or your mother and it's this very behaviour that will most likely cause your desired resolution to be denied. In fact, I think it's quite likely that a best interests meeting (which I agree should take place) is likely to result in you being barred from the home. I imagine you would not wish this to happen.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
No one here thinks you're the bad guy but I believe your father could do with some peace and quiet instead of having family members going to war over him, and him being told everything about it, from each side.
I am ot at war with my father, I have never mentioned to my father that the rest of his family have betrayed him!!!

My mother and sister have certainly been telling him that I am arguing - He tells me and my husband. We tell him we have not and not to worry about it!

He greeted me two weeks ago with 'You've been arguing again' to which I replied 'I bloody well have not, I damn well taped it this time Dad, it bloody well isn't me'. He smailed (well he didn't actually he grinned mischeviously, but I can't remember how to spell grined?).

As to peace and quite, my father HATES that he has all these people around him making noise. And I quote 'its bloody hell here'.

So I leave him in a place he hates, or do I fight to get him here for a couple of months, to calm him, to be in a familair routine with limited people, so that his assessment can be done when he IS calm and relaxed and comfortable?

You see I do not wish him to be here permanently if he wishes an alternative. I and my hubby's only wish, is that when he is assessed in surroundings where he can be seen as we see him. his medication will be correct, and his choice will be based on his wishes and desires. I know for a fact my father will improve with us. To the point that any assessment will be acurate and possible. If he wants to go to the care home, he has my blessing. If he wants to stay with us he has my blessing. If he improves and my mother will listen to him and his choice (And my mother agrees) is to go back home he will have my blessing and I will happily be there 5 weeks out of 8 to help both.

All I want for my father is freedom of choice! - and not this deprivation of liberty which he has at the moment!

Incidentally - spoke to my father on the phone tonight, to tell him to keep up the fight. 'For what, what is the point?' we had a promise in the hospital, when he said the 'others' (rest of family) 'had left him to rot' We said he could have 4 more great years. Changed his good for great and he liked it. I told him to keep fighting and to not give up, we'd get him out. The phone was taken off him by the nurse, who told me I couldn't say that, because my father would never leave the home and I was causing him distress------- So called qualified nurse--- infront of my father in his hearing telling him there was no hope!!!

Who causes who distress and who gives someone something to live for?

Depravation of liberty? - Who has the right to monitor my fathers phone calls??? As that is totally illegal!
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
I'm sorry - you are clearly distressed and I think we all understand that. But from everything you have said here, I think you are going the wrong way about this but that's just my opinion.

Anyway read this fact sheet regarding DOLs http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=1327

and this one re Mental Capacity http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=354

But please, really, stop promising your father that "we'd get him out". By all means, do your best to do so if you think that's the right thing, but since you have little standing in this situation (because you aren't his spouse) stop promising something that you have small chance of achieving. It's not going to make his situation any better and bluntly, it makes you seem erratic and out of control.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
I'm sorry - you are clearly distressed and I think we all understand that. But from everything you have said here, I think you are going the wrong way about this but that's just my opinion.

Anyway read this fact sheet regarding DOLs http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/sc...ocumentID=1327

and this one re Mental Capacity http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/sc...documentID=354

But please, really, stop promising your father that "we'd get him out". By all means, do your best to do so if you think that's the right thing, but since you have little standing in this situation (because you aren't his spouse) stop promising something that you have small chance of achieving. It's not going to make his situation any better and bluntly, it makes you seem erratic and out of control.
I am admittedly slightly out of control, in that my father's wishes are being over ruled. From you link
consider if the decision can be postponed until the person has sufficient mental capacity to make the decision themselves
involve the person who lacks mental capacity in the decision as much as possible
find out the person's views (current or past), if possible, and take these into account
And there in lies the
Making decisions in a person's 'best interests'
I may well be slightly out of control, but am I not acting for and in accordance with the law of the land?
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
I know this may be ridiculous but..................
first of all if he had a UTI it may well have thrown him completely into a very confused and distressed state - many of us have cared for people with dementia who have become so much worse with a UTI

If he is really saying he hates it in this care home then I agree with a previous poster who said he should and must be listened to. I believe that even people without 'full capacity' should be respected and listened to.

Is there any possibility that you and your mother could come to a compromise and that she would allow him to come home with you for 'respite' at least to see how his recovery goes? I agree that her wishes will probably be key in this, can you win her over to some sort of compromise? Maybe with a mediator?

I may be completely off track here but sometimes we have to think outside the box in order to move forward and it seems to me that each of you are caught up in your own misery and desperation and there must be a way to pull this together with compromises on all sides before you all become ill.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
I know this may be ridiculous but..................
first of all if he had a UTI it may well have thrown him completely into a very confused and distressed state - many of us have cared for people with dementia who have become so much worse with a UTI

If he is really saying he hates it in this care home then I agree with a previous poster who said he should and must be listened to. I believe that even people without 'full capacity' should be respected and listened to.

Is there any possibility that you and your mother could come to a compromise and that she would allow him to come home with you for 'respite' at least to see how his recovery goes? I agree that her wishes will probably be key in this, can you win her over to some sort of compromise? Maybe with a mediator?

I may be completely off track here but sometimes we have to think outside the box in order to move forward and it seems to me that each of you are caught up in your own misery and desperation and there must be a way to pull this together with compromises on all sides before you all become ill.
Hi Fizzie

I do not know what more I can do, I have desperately tried everything, hubby and I have been thinking, since reading your text, if there is indeed any other way we can get a compromise, but have failed spectacularly in coming up with any other ideas.

So if anyone else can think of something, as so far we have tried.
Moving home 5 weeks out of 8 + 2 weeks with both parents with us.
Offered to convert a garage, to bedroom ensuite wet room.
Being there whenever help is needed over and above.
She is able to get 2 carers 4x per day 7 days a week.
She does not want him in 'her' home.
She does not want him with us.

He has deteriorated so much since the hospital and the rest home stopped his limited exercise. They say he is incontinent, but every single time we visit at some point he says he needs to go to the toilet, I explain there is a catheter there and he asks me are you sure? -
He was released from hospital into the care home still having delirium, the SS said it was to do with bed blocking.
We think he still has a form of delirium but the hospital discharge papers said no dementia (un diagnosed) And no reference whatsoever to the 3 months of delirium they were waiting for him to snap out of.
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
Well it certainly sounds as though you have tried everything.

If your Dad has capacity then in law he has the right to decide what he wants to do - you said he doesn't have dementia. There is a lot of information about mental capacity on www.scie.org.uk which you may find helpful. The key for everyone else is - is this the best thing for him but the fact remains that if he has capacity he can decide.

http://www.scie.org.uk/publications...anning/care_planning_liberty_and_autonomy.asp
 

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,708
North West
I find this a very sad and disturbing thread. I will not add to the responses about what can be done as I have nothing new to add there. But it does strike me that this a cautionary tale in terms of the advisability of anyone promising anyone else that they will not end up in a care home. Such a promise may well be impossible to keep given that no-one can predict the future. I'm sure very many of us hope this laudable aim will be achieved but have realised that it might not, for any one of a number of reasons.
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
9,051
Yorkshire
Thankyou for writing that stanleypj. I haven't known how to respond; your calm and thoughtful post is what I couldn't find a way to put into words.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
I find this a very sad and disturbing thread. I will not add to the responses about what can be done as I have nothing new to add there. But it does strike me that this a cautionary tale in terms of the advisability of anyone promising anyone else that they will not end up in a care home. Such a promise may well be impossible to keep given that no-one can predict the future. I'm sure very many of us hope this laudable aim will be achieved but have realised that it might not, for any one of a number of reasons.
Thank you for your response. But I am confused. Why will it not be possible?
My father doesn't want to be there. Its my mother who wants him there!
He would have been sent home, but for my mothers health!
I am of good health and have offered to look after him.
When there are so very many people struggling to get their loved ones into a care home, because they cannot cope. Why would they refuse someone who wishes to take on that responsibility for as long as I too am able? Which may well be for the rest of his life?
I m so confused as to why several peope think it is not possible.
 

Angie138

Registered User
Oct 12, 2015
3
Hi

I need help, as does my father! actually my father is in need of a lot of help!

Long, long story cut short. Myself and my siblings as well as my mother, have promised for as long as I can remember that neither of my parents would end up in a home. We have always promised.

My father had a fall, had urinary and blood infection. Mother and siblings have been telling hubby and I he is a vegetable. Hubby and I have been visiting in hospital only to find he has mental capacity, can hold a conversation (briefly) but is most certainly not a vegetable!

Fallout has occurred hubby and I are liars, he cannot hold a conversation!
Mother is ill and cannot look after him, so she has sent him to a care home. We have facilities here to look after him. (Built for my mother whose health improved).
Father in a very parocial area and hubby and I live 200 miles away.

My fathers wishes are entirely governed by my mother's health. We are sick and tired of being told by hospitals and now certain members of the care home that my mother is not well and cannot look after him. There is no power of attorney!

My father's life (what remains of it). is now being governed by my mother's health. I have stated that my father made his wishes clear that he never wanted to be in a care home. The nurse informs me tonight that he will never leave the care home as mother cannot look after him. I said that that had no basis in law and that my father is protected by the mental capacity act, he having made his wishes known prior to his fall.

My mother having placed him in a care home, wouldn't upgrade his room, 'its not important' won't despite 3 months of us trying to engage him, offer photos, familiar items, will only visit 1/2 hour at a time per day. 'I'm not well'.
Nurse informs us tonight despite my father requesting EVERY TIME we visit to take him away from here (hospital/care home) that my mothers rights are what matters.
How is this possible?
How do I get him out?
How do I prove we can look after him?
What does it take to get social services/assesment doctors and care home managers to speak with each other and get their fingers out? - My father is deteriorating and needs to be in a loving environment.
What do you do?

I love my father who is not being exercised, who has gone from cavalry twills and made to measure sports jacket to my mother's preferred George jogging bottoms and jumpers. He has been humiliated!

Please help.
I hope you can get the help you need,its a difficult one,I find myself trying to do whats best with my mum,only resistance I have is my mum herself refusing all help even home help etc.I send you hugs and hope things get worked out for you :)
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
My response was a general one about the issue of making a promise that one cannot be sure of keeping.
True, but as things stand, I can keep my promise, health prevailing on my side.
Unfortunately I've never been good at subtle, and your response threw me.

A quick call to the OPG confirmed however that my father's wishes are above all others. whether or not he has capacity, his wishes while mentally having capacity, take presidence.

I am new to this site, and I know you have all been there, seen it and done it. I am truly desperate of keeping my promise. Negatives do not help, advice as to pitfalls are helpful.

I read your listing regarding Luke Clements, what is possible in the law to get assistance does work both ways! - It was from this post of yours and someone else, that I contacted the OPG. What works one way, must surely work in reverse!

As I say I am desperate, my father and I quote from 6 weeks ago 'xx me xx You live your life looking out for everyone, doing your best and walking the right path. In the hope that one day they'd be there for you. Perhaps if my mind hadn't been so slow I wouldn't have been such a nuisance.'

My father helped everybody no matter who, friends or strangers - I am damn well not going to give up on him! Yes I am fighting, and yes I need ideas from different angles. If you can get them in, you must be able to get them out!
 

nita

Registered User
Dec 30, 2011
1,852
Essex
The only way I can see this being resolved is for a "best interests" meeting to be called with all parties present. That means: any social worker he has (is he being funded by Social Services?), the care home manager, possibly a doctor or nurse who will have assessed his capacity, and family members.

Bear in mind that, if a professional person assesses your father as not having the capacity to make the decision, a DOLS order can be put in place if it is decided that it is in his best interests to remain in care.

I can only see this sort of "official" route as a way of resolving the issue. You would have to put your case at this meeting and be as calm and reasonable as possible to get your voice heard. Your father's wishes would be taken into account - they wouldn't automatically be overridden even if they decided he lacked capacity. Family members would also be listened to and then a decision made.

I would detach yourself from all this and not argue the case further with your mother from now on. I am surprised that it hasn't already been suggested by the care home manager. Also, I wouldn't talk about it to your father or get his hopes up. As others have said, he should not be disturbed unduly while this is going on.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
The only way I can see this being resolved is for a "best interests" meeting to be called with all parties present. That means: any social worker he has (is he being funded by Social Services?), the care home manager, possibly a doctor or nurse who will have assessed his capacity, and family members.

Bear in mind that, if a professional person assesses your father as not having the capacity to make the decision, a DOLS order can be put in place if it is decided that it is in his best interests to remain in care.

I can only see this sort of "official" route as a way of resolving the issue. You would have to put your case at this meeting and be as calm and reasonable as possible to get your voice heard. Your father's wishes would be taken into account - they wouldn't automatically be overridden even if they decided he lacked capacity. Family members would also be listened to and then a decision made.

I would detach yourself from all this and not argue the case further with your mother from now on. I am surprised that it hasn't already been suggested by the care home manager. Also, I wouldn't talk about it to your father or get his hopes up. As others have said, he should not be disturbed unduly while this is going on.
Thanks Nita
Having spoken to the OPG, I told them that I had written to his care manager, stating that my father needed a safe, environment in order to be assessed, they agreed that the MCA stated just this. I told them a Dr had assessed him last week and I didn't believe she was made aware of the letter to the care manager. The OPG told me to contact Social Services ASAP to find out. They said if the assessment had been done without all relevant information, I should report the SS care manager! - I said that was not a route I wished to persue at the moment. - But SS were not aware that the DR would be assessing my father, our information not given, so I have asked where, when and for how long; Bearing in mind that I had pre notified them of my disatisfaction of my father being assessed somewhere he is not comfortable in. (OPG says it contravenes his rights!)
The nurse telling me my father would never leave the care home, as it was not my mother's wishes. I was told I should also report, in that she misquoted the MCA! SS has confirmed that all my family did tell her my father would hate being in a care home. But chose not to involve me, as per mum's wishes. SS were informed as per advice from the OPG that that descision also violated my father's rights!
Dad is funded by SS as my mother is unable to look after him. And SS decided he would be safer in a care home.
I told SS today that I required a hoist, raise for the toilet, and a wheelchair to safely look after my father. SS needed to speak to her manager.
But SS are totally clear on the MCA and his rights and freedoms. I on the other hand have no debts, no criminal record, no illegal activities so any descision as to my being fit to look after my father would be based on something said by my family.
OPG have told me that can also be contested if false! - My father being the main concern!
As to the best interests, it appears the 'bodies' that be are going to discuss it.
I was however able to add to them, that the safe care home for my father did not realise he was in pain with his neck, and that he told me it was hurting so much. I told SS if they are so caring, how could they miss that?
All in all, tonight I am on the up!
 

sue38

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
10,854
52
Wigan, Lancs
Can I ask if you have ever cared for someone with advanced dementia 24/7?

My dad had dementia and although I was frequently there for him for several hours a day several days a week, that is a world away from caring for someone 24/7. Some people with dementia can 'raise their game' for people other than their main carer; the visiting carer can come into the caring situation (fresh from a good night's sleep) with enthusiasm and positivity, knowing that in a few hours they will be going back to their well ordered and relaxed home.

Whilst I understand that your intentions are the best, please do not go into this with rose tinted glasses. When my dad went into a care home it allowed me, to a certain extent, to become his daughter again, rather than his gatekeeper/nurse/punchbag.