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I really need legal advice to help my father, can anyone help?

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
I agree, I too have cared for and currently look after someone with dementia and I work in and out of care homes and other places of care. I do agree but every situation is different for all of us and I still believe that there are voices that are not always listened to
Thank you Fizzie

I think there are a lot of voices out there which are not being heard. I spoke to a client, who is a psychiatrc nurse, and he tells me often as not, those with dementia are more sane than the rest of us, and should never be dismissed. He told me that it so easy to think someone is ranting, if you do not have the time to sit with them long enough. He said where he works, they often spend hours with inpatients who have been classed as not having mental capacity, only to find that familiarity and friendliness brings out the best. He says he adores his job because he really gets to have a good chat with his patients. - He is very scepticle of these assessments!
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
We all know and understand that you want to look after your father as you think this is what's best for him. However, you need to learn to see things from other people's perspectives too. Whatever your feelings towards your mother and how she treats your father are, she is his wife and her health matters. .
Beate, I have seen and can see things from other peoples point of view, truly! I know my mother's health matters. I have never said it didn't. BUT I have stated that my father's rights cannot be governed by my mothers health. There is a distinct difference. If it were the other way around I would do the same only fighting for my mother!
 

Tin

Registered User
May 18, 2014
4,825
UK
Hi Underwood, I go to Citizens Advice for most things these days, not that I am there all the time!!! but I am in the fortunate position of having a very good friend at our local office. Hope you can start 'chasing' soon. Chin up.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
To take one tiny example, if you look at the last few lines of Underwood's first post about how her father is dressed in the care home --- how many of our dads, husbands, grandads who once wore smart jackets and trousers now wear joggers and jumpers? My dad does. But not to humiliate him.

Those of us who responded did just that.
Responded to what we read on the page.
Sleepless, my father has not had a dementia diagnosis. He has had delirium, at the point he was admitted to the care home the SS confirmed he still had delirium. They are still trying to figure our what sort of dementia he has.
Walking, talking and active May - Delirium but moments of absolute clarity. How do you diagnose Alzheimers/dementia if someone still possibly have delirium?
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
Look, we are really trying to help you, but you need to see the different opinions on the situation, the concerns we are trying to raise and also your own behaviour. No offense but you are quite pig-headed right now and don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with your point of view. If you want to succeed in this, you need to calm right down, get your views across as professionally as possible without throwing accusations around and be open to dialogue. Otherwise the powers to be (and your mother) won't listen to you. And you need to get them on your side or you won't stand a chance. They are not interested in family politics, just in what's best for your dad, and yes, for your mother, as she counts too.
Beautifully put, you are quite correct. I am pig headed! and I do need to calm down. Thank you and no offense taken:)
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,960
Brixham Devon
Thank you Fizzie

I think there are a lot of voices out there which are not being heard. I spoke to a client, who is a psychiatrc nurse, and he tells me often as not, those with dementia are more sane than the rest of us, and should never be dismissed.
What a strange thing for a psychiatric nurse to say. Dementia has nothing to do with insanity:( and I cannot think why he would make the comparison.:confused: Dementia is an organic, progressive illness. Insanity doesn't enter the equation. If a psychiatric nurse has that attitude (and he should know better and refrain from using such language) it's no wonder that there is little understanding by 'experts.'
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
What a strange thing for a psychiatric nurse to say. Dementia has nothing to do with insanity:( and I cannot think why he would make the comparison.:confused: Dementia is an organic, progressive illness. Insanity doesn't enter the equation. If a psychiatric nurse has that attitude (and he should know better and refrain from using such language) it's no wonder that there is little understanding by 'experts.'
sane

adjective
adjective: sane; comparative adjective: saner; superlative adjective: sanest

(of a person) of sound mind; not mad or mentally ill.
"hard work kept me sane"
synonyms: of sound mind, right in the head, in one's right mind, in possession of all one's faculties, able to think/reason clearly, lucid, clear-headed, rational, coherent, balanced, well balanced, stable, normal; More
compos mentis;
informalall there
"an accused person is presumed to be sane until they can prove the contrary"
antonyms: insane, mad
reasonable or sensible.
"a sane discussion of the important social issues of our time"
synonyms: sensible, practical, advisable, responsible, realistic, full of common sense, prudent, circumspect, pragmatic, wise, reasonable, rational, mature, level-headed, commonsensical, judicious, politic, sound, balanced, sober
 

Katrine

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
2,839
England
What a strange thing for a psychiatric nurse to say. Dementia has nothing to do with insanity:( and I cannot think why he would make the comparison.:confused: Dementia is an organic, progressive illness. Insanity doesn't enter the equation. If a psychiatric nurse has that attitude (and he should know better and refrain from using such language) it's no wonder that there is little understanding by 'experts.'
I took it to mean that the nurse was saying just the same as you Lyn. That people often treat people with dementia as if they are mentally ill and do not take sufficient notice of what they say, dismissing them as being delusional. Whereas, despite their confusion and problems with memory, people with dementia often demonstrate that their essential personality is unaltered and they do know what matters to them, if you really take time to listen. Words may be jumbled, context may be hard to establish, but if you take the time to get to know the person there is a consistency in the messages they want to get across. The same, of course, could be said for people with mental health problems, they also need to be listened to.

The bottom line is that just because someone has damage to their brain doesn't mean that their brain doesn't work at all. Underwood has said her family describe her dad as a vegetable. If they do, then that's dismissing everything her dad says because he's got cognitive impairment.
 
Last edited:

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
9,171
Yorkshire
Evening Underwood
I have told them all that I love my mother!! and am not out on a bitter vendetta. Just for clarification, incase any one thought otherwise.
From reading your posts carefully, I for one have no doubt that you love both your parents and want what is best for each and both of them. It is just that you think your father's wishes and needs are not being addressed fully and separately from those of your mother.

I applaud your standing up for your father. However I must admit I find your way of expressing yourself rather strident. We are all individuals and express ourselves in our own way. Sometimes, though, I have found that a measured approach has got me further with an issue than a family member who 'gets it off my chest' but also gets others' backs up. And sadly our different approaches has caused a rift.

Anyway ....

In my local town there is a firm of solicitors who specialise in issues of the elderly. And I know that some firms do give a first hour consultation for no fee. Maybe there is a such a firm local to you?
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,960
Brixham Devon
sane

adjective
adjective: sane; comparative adjective: saner; superlative adjective: sanest

(of a person) of sound mind; not mad or mentally ill.
"hard work kept me sane"
synonyms: of sound mind, right in the head, in one's right mind, in possession of all one's faculties, able to think/reason clearly, lucid, clear-headed, rational, coherent, balanced, well balanced, stable, normal; More
compos mentis;
informalall there
"an accused person is presumed to be sane until they can prove the contrary"
antonyms: insane, mad
reasonable or sensible.
"a sane discussion of the important social issues of our time"
synonyms: sensible, practical, advisable, responsible, realistic, full of common sense, prudent, circumspect, pragmatic, wise, reasonable, rational, mature, level-headed, commonsensical, judicious, politic, sound, balanced, sober
Well, thank you for the semantic lesson.

Your friend may well be interested in the following definition of 'sane' v 'Dementia'

Dementia is a loss of mental capacity that usually occurs when you get older. The medical encyclopaedia defines it "Dementia is a loss of brain function. It is not a single disease. Instead, dementia refers to a group of illnesses that involve memory, behavior, learning, and communicating problems. The problems are progressive, which means they slowly get worse."

Insanity is a not medical term, it's not a disease. The context in which "insanity" is usually mentioned is in colloquial conversation and in law (eg "insanity defence").
It's no longer an acceptable term for those who act in unpredictable and "mad" ways. It was used in former times to describe people who were somewhat unusual and acted in "irrational" ways, usually due to a psychiatric condition, such as schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorders. People who have conditions that have caused dementia may be labelled "insane" by others, but that's not really appropriate if you deal with people in a professional setting.
 

sleepless

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
3,223
The Sweet North
Sleepless, my father has not had a dementia diagnosis. He has had delirium, at the point he was admitted to the care home the SS confirmed he still had delirium. They are still trying to figure our what sort of dementia he has.
Walking, talking and active May - Delirium but moments of absolute clarity. How do you diagnose Alzheimers/dementia if someone still possibly have delirium?
My experience of delirium is limited, (my Dad had it once, caused by an infection, and it lasted several hours) but my understanding is that is relatively short-lived, probably ceases when the underlying cause is treated.
It is unfortunate that dementia diagnosis can take some time. If Alzheimer's is diagnosed there are treatments available which in many cases slow down the progress of the disease, but with vascular dementia only the symptoms can be treated, there is nothing available to slow it down.
I hope your father does not have long to wait for diagnosis.
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
Well said Katrine!

The psychiatric nurses I have met often have considerable experience of dementia - both in the community or in hospitals. My understanding is that the psychiatric nurse is simply saying that taking time and REALLY listening to people sometimes opens up doors that we never imagined were there. That applies to those of us with full capacity as well as those with varying degrees of anxiety, stress, mental illness, memory loss.

Psychiatric nurses do not just deal with severe mental illness or 'insanity' in laymen's terms, they have extensive knowledge and they too are well worth listening to!
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
Underwood I think you are taking a reasoned approach, talking to the right people and trying to get the right support for all your family and find a way out of this very complex maze. I wish you all the luck in the world and we are here to support you on your journey. Keep posting x
 

In a Whirl

Registered User
Feb 23, 2015
62
Underwood,
Do you know for certain that all the possible causes of your Father's delirium have been investigated? Just a thought!
Quote:
The most common causes of delirium are:
•a urine or chest infection
•having a high temperature
•side-effects of medicine like pain killers and steroids
•dehydration, low salt levels, low haemoglobin (anaemia)
•liver or kidney problems
•suddenly stopping drugs or alcohol
•major surgery
•epilepsy
•brain injury or infection
•terminal illness
•constipation
•being in an unfamiliar place.

There is often more than one cause – and sometimes the cause is not found.

How is delirium treated?

To treat delirium, you need to treat the cause. For example, an infection may be treated with antibiotics.

Can sedative medication (tranquillisers) help?

Sedatives can make delirium worse, so should only be used in a few situations:
•When someone who drinks a lot of alcohol stops suddenly, they will need a regular dose of a sedative medication (benzodiazepines) that is reduced over several days. This will stop withdrawal symptoms, but should be done under close medical supervision.
•To calm someone enough to have investigations or treatment.
•To stop someone endangering themselves or other people.
•When someone is very agitated or anxious.
•When someone is seeing or hearing things that are not there.

Low doses of antipsychotic medication should be given to help with frightening hallucinations or beliefs that people are trying to harm you.

Any sedative medication should be given in the lowest possible dose for the shortest time possible.

How long does it take to get better?

Delirium gets better when the cause is treated. You can recover very quickly, but it can take several days or weeks.
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
Underwood,
Do you know for certain that all the possible causes of your Father's delirium have been investigated? Just a thought!
Quote:
The most common causes of delirium are:
•a urine or chest infection
•having a high temperature
•side-effects of medicine like pain killers and steroids
•dehydration, low salt levels, low haemoglobin (anaemia)
•liver or kidney problems
•suddenly stopping drugs or alcohol
•major surgery
•epilepsy
•brain injury or infection
•terminal illness
•constipation
•being in an unfamiliar place.

There is often more than one cause – and sometimes the cause is not found.

How is delirium treated?

To treat delirium, you need to treat the cause. For example, an infection may be treated with antibiotics.

Can sedative medication (tranquillisers) help?

Sedatives can make delirium worse, so should only be used in a few situations:
•When someone who drinks a lot of alcohol stops suddenly, they will need a regular dose of a sedative medication (benzodiazepines) that is reduced over several days. This will stop withdrawal symptoms, but should be done under close medical supervision.
•To calm someone enough to have investigations or treatment.
•To stop someone endangering themselves or other people.
•When someone is very agitated or anxious.
•When someone is seeing or hearing things that are not there.

Low doses of antipsychotic medication should be given to help with frightening hallucinations or beliefs that people are trying to harm you.

Any sedative medication should be given in the lowest possible dose for the shortest time possible.

How long does it take to get better?

Delirium gets better when the cause is treated. You can recover very quickly, but it can take several days or weeks.
In a whirl, Thank you so much for that! - Mys father has high and low temperatures, he had and may possibly still have a urine infection, he is presently on high dose paracetamol x 3/4 x per day (this as far as I understand is an opiate and not good for his condition) He is dehydrated, in that when we saw him last he drank quite quickly 3 cups of tea, had we not been there I doubt these would have been offered.
Re liver kidneys - My father had a fall in the bath in June and really hurt himself, he called for help but no one heard him. He managed to get up but complained he wasn't feeling well, my mother after the 'big fall' said he had been deteriorating but 'that's what they do' 'Meybe I should have taken him to the doctors but 'that's what happens to people like that'.
Drugs not sure of
Major surgery, yes, the really worst possible fracture of the hip.
Epilepsy - no
Brain injury - really possible - Fell down the stairs and knocked his head. - In a new 'high tech best of the best hospitals and fell knocking his head' - Another hospital fell and knocked his head. - I weny ballistic (which will not suprise some who are watching this thread) and demanded to know if a brain scan had been done on admittance and if a brain scan had been done after the 2 falls - It hadn't, but it was, there was no indication of shadowing, or bleed or brain damage, there was a polyp on the brain but this was said not to be a problem and certainly wouldn't cause the delirium.
Terminal illness - no - My father had TB when young and that is seen on the lung Xrays but no indication of anything else.
Constipation - Yes, they stopped exercising and he ws put on laxatives as a result.
Being in an unfamiliar place - Yep since the end of June he has now been in 4 different places.
Calming - He cannot be calmed he is in hell and wants out.
Agitated - All the time, he shouldn't be there, he knows it I know it. (rephrase we know it!)
Delirium - We were told it could take months!

In a whirl, thank you so much for your post. Really grateful you've read mine and realise there is more to this than just dementia. Thank you!:)

HOWEVER and I appologise if I have skirted through your questions, but I had a fall today took cocodomol and had a glass of wine (I know really bad idea, but I did it, so sue me!). Anyway tried to speak to my father tonight, but the care home nurse was upstairs and my father was downstairs having supper. I said I would call back 30 mins later. BUT having done this before and been told my father was in bed, I called 22 mins later. In that time of having supper, he had been showered, creamed, dressed/ undressed and was now fast asleep. - Naturally everything I do is taped, and the nurse confirmed that this is exactly what happened. MY question is, how is that possible???

Sorry in a whirl, but am in a whirl myself, I cannot understand how this can happen in under 15 minutes.

But my father I am 95% sure stll has delirium!!

I was on the up today and after trying to speak to him I just wish I'd taken more cocodamol to ease this pain I am feeling for him.

In a whirl. If any of the above is offensive I genuinely am sorry - If anyone else takes it as abusive, derogatory or offensive I apologise profusely. Having a bad day!!!
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
.


In a whirl, thank you so much for your post. Really grateful you've read mine and realise there is more to this than just dementia. Thank you!:)

HOWEVER and I appologise if I have skirted through your questions, but I had a fall today took cocodomol and had a glass of wine (I know really bad idea, but I did it, so sue me!). Anyway tried to speak to my father tonight, but the care home nurse was upstairs and my father was downstairs having supper. I said I would call back 30 mins later. BUT having done this before and been told my father was in bed, I called 22 mins later. In that time of having supper, he had been showered, creamed, dressed/ undressed and was now fast asleep. - Naturally everything I do is taped, and the nurse confirmed that this is exactly what happened. MY question is, how is that possible???

Sorry in a whirl, but am in a whirl myself, I cannot understand how this can happen in under 15 minutes.

But my father I am 95% sure stll has delirium!!

I was on the up today and after trying to speak to him I just wish I'd taken more cocodamol to ease this pain I am feeling for him.

In a whirl. If any of the above is offensive I genuinely am sorry - If anyone else takes it as abusive, derogatory or offensive I apologise profusely. Having a bad day!!![/QUOTE]

Wow that is fast - it is so fast that it really isn't possible is it? I'm not sure i could do those number of tasks that quickly!!!
 

underwood

Registered User
Oct 9, 2015
48
Nottingham
Paracetamol isn't an opiate.


Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point
Please, I know I am on here and have ended up as punch bag, but I am not nor ever have been an idiot!
http://www.talktofrank.com/drug/opiateopioid-painkillers if you do not wish to click the link here it is:-


What are opiate/opioid painkillers?

Opiate/opioid painkillers are medicines with effects similar to opium. They act by stimulating opioid receptors in the brain and nervous system. There are a large number of opiate/opioid medicines including codeine, morphine, dihydrocodeine, methadone, buprenorphine and diamorphine (also known as heroin). Opium comes from the flower of the opium poppy and has been used for many hundreds of years to treat pain, sleeplessness and diarrhoea. Increasingly the terms opiate and opioid are used interchangeably when referring to these drugs. Opiate is sometimes used to refer only to those drugs derived directly or indirectly from natural opium. However, they all act on the opioid receptor in the body.

Opiate painkillers are available either from doctors on prescription; or, in relatively low doses over-the-counter, at a pharmacy, combined with aspirin, ibuprofen or paracetamol. They are intended to be used for a limited period of time to treat pain that does not respond to standard effective painkillers like aspirin, ibuprofen and paracetamol.

Although opiate painkillers will vary in how powerful they are, they are all sedative painkillers that can depress the nervous system, and so slow down body functions and reduce physical and psychological pain. They can also be highly addictive.

Although they are normally safe to take if you follow your doctor’s/pharmacists instructions, some people who have used opiate painkillers regularly become dependent on them. If they are taken primarily to get high and to feel better, the risk of addiction will be greater.

The key effects and risks of opiate painkillers include:

Pain relief.
Feelings of well-being, relaxation and sleepiness.
Constipation.
Suppressed coughing.
Nausea, vomiting, sweating, itching, mood swings and feelings of lethargy
Addiction.
In overdose, breathing stops.

I very rarely say things I have not researched. I am trying to write accurate posts for other users to use.

Don't question me unless you know for sure.

Oh and moderators. I do not believe I have at any point said any thing offensive, abusive, inflamatory. No doubt you will ADVISE ACCORDINGLY.

Fueled with pain killers and now 2 glasses of wine. Life is presently swimming around me!:)
 

sleepless

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
3,223
The Sweet North
.


In a whirl, thank you so much for your post. Really grateful you've read mine and realise there is more to this than just dementia. Thank you!:)

HOWEVER and I appologise if I have skirted through your questions, but I had a fall today took cocodomol and had a glass of wine (I know really bad idea, but I did it, so sue me!). Anyway tried to speak to my father tonight, but the care home nurse was upstairs and my father was downstairs having supper. I said I would call back 30 mins later. BUT having done this before and been told my father was in bed, I called 22 mins later. In that time of having supper, he had been showered, creamed, dressed/ undressed and was now fast asleep. - Naturally everything I do is taped, and the nurse confirmed that this is exactly what happened. MY question is, how is that possible???

Sorry in a whirl, but am in a whirl myself, I cannot understand how this can happen in under 15 minutes.
And.
But my father I am 95% sure stll has delirium!!

I was on the up today and after trying to speak to him I just wish I'd taken more cocodamol to ease this pain I am feeling for him.

In a whirl. If any of the above is offensive I genuinely am sorry - If anyone else takes it as abusive, derogatory or offensive I apologise profusely. Having a bad day!!!
Wow that is fast - it is so fast that it really isn't possible is it? I'm not sure i could do those number of tasks that quickly!!![/QUOTE]

I don't understand why you make such an issue of the supposed time it took to put your father to bed.
The nurse you spoke to was upstairs, he was downstairs. So when you spoke to her he may have finished his meal and could have been already in the process of being showered etc.
Perhaps that time of day isn't the best time to ring to speak to him?