How is personal allowance paid if LA funded in a care home, and what happens to any money mum has without LPA

[annielou]

I asked this on my usual thread but then thought maybe this is better place for it, so apologies for repeating myself and asking twice x
My mum is currently in a CH being assessed for permanent care after two weeks in hospital, if she needs permanent care which everybody has been saying she does then she will be LA funded . My questions are about her personal allowance from her benefits and the money she has currently in her bank account.
Nobody has LPA for mum but if they say after assessment she no longer has capacity we will probably apply for deputyship for mum if possible. I'm an appointee for mums benefits with DWP and for years mum has given verbal permission to me and my husband to draw out money and pay her bills. She doesn't think there is anything wrong with her so didn't see need for an LPA as she thought she could just carry on with us doing things for her as and when.
Currently mum gets state pension, pension credit and attendance allowance all paid direct into her bank account. I understand her benefits will go towards her care and she will only get a small allowance each week, but how is this paid? Will it go into her bank account like her benefits did previously or will it be given to the CH to hand out?
The CH mum is in at moment for a short stay during assessment is one she will likely stay at if made permanent. Today we got paperwork to fill in on mums behalf for residency agreement. It had a form in for Personal Allowance contract for optional extras that care costs don't cover, which it says most residents find it convenient for the home to pay for them on their behalf out of an individual cash float for them held by the home to avoid them holding too much cash themselves/in their rooms. We can choose which things on list we want to include if we want to do that. They ask for an initial deposit and give a receipt and afterwards keep a record which we can ask for at any time.
I think it would be a good idea rather than mum and them having to wonder if she'll remember to pay right amount for things like hairdresser etc, but I wondered if that means all her personal allowance money left from her benefits goes automatically into her personal cash float, or if she is given personal allowance and then we top up the float?
My other question is about mums bank account which currently has some money in but not above limits she should have to pay towards her care, but if mum goes into a CH permanently what happens to the money in mums account, will SS take it, or is it still mums money?
If it is still mums money and not taken out for her car,e as we don't have LPA for mum who takes over looking after mums account? At moment mum gives us verbal permission to draw out money and to pay her bills but if in CH permanently I assume that won't continue, does SS take control over it or if we apply for deputyship can we look after it and use it for mum ?

 

[Bunpoots]

Hi @annielou . When my dad didn’t have LPA for mum - she had a sudden stroke so nothing was in place - she could still (just) sign a cheque to pay for things. Could your mum manage this until you manage to get deputyship?

 

[annielou]

Thanks @Bunpoots x She could sign one with a bit of reminder what a signature is, but unfortunately mums account doesn't have a cheque book. We do have her bank card though as mum gave it us to draw out money as and when she asked for it before she went in hospital but don't know if we would be able to carry on using it. I'm happy to pay any of her bills that come up myself until things are sorted just wondering what happens to her account.

 

[marionq]

I refused to become deputy for my sister in law when she went into care and asked the LA to apply for it. Apparently it takes about six months to go through. I put £100 in an account with the care home for podiatrist and haircuts etc and they told me that when the deputyship is completed they will ask for a standing order of £100 to be put into that account every month. Her savings, pension, DLA etc will all go towards her care and she has nothing to spend money on in a general sense.

Until now I have stumped up when they phone for more pants, socks, pjs etc but my concern is who will buy and pay for these things long term. It would be nice to have clear advice on all of this.

 

[canary]

@marionq - once the deputy is appointed it will be their responsibility to buy clothes etc from your SILs account and also to sort out standing orders.

I expect you would be able to liaise with them over purchases if you wished.

 

[annielou]

It is confusing isn’t it @marionq hopefully when your SILs deputyship is granted SS will take over everything for her. fingers crossed for you ?

 

[Banjomansmate]

I had LPA for The Banjoman but I imagine once your Deputyship was approved then things would work along the same lines except that you would have to keep careful records as to what you spent and report annually to OPG.
Your Mum will lose Attendance Allowance once she is in residential care but will still recieve her State Pension and Pension Credit which will continue to be paid into her current account. Once the LA have agreed the payment to the Care Home they will set up a Direct Debit for your Mum’s contribution which is basically all her weekly income except for about £30.00. which she has for personal expenses. The Banjoman’s Care Home sent me a monthly invoice for anything they had to spend out for him - chiropodist, hairdresser, toiletries etc. I paid this from his current account. I also used money from his account to send his daughters something for their Birthdays and at Christmas.
Assuming your Mum’s LA use the same system they should have nothing whatsoever to do with any of Mum’s money apart from sending you a monthly statement saying how much they have taken with the DD.

 

[jaymor]

Can I just add that using your Mother’s card, with or without her consent is against the banks rules. When a card is issued it is issued on the understanding that the person who had the account is the only one to use that card and the PIN should not be given to anyone.

Should something go wrong then the bank will take no responsibility to refund anything as the PIN was known to others and the card used by others.

 

[annielou]

Can I just add that using your Mother’s card, with or without her consent is against the banks rules. When a card is issued it is issued on the understanding that the person who had the account is the only one to use that card and the PIN should not be given to anyone.

Should something go wrong then the bank will take no responsibility to refund anything as the PIN was known to others and the card used by others.

I know it shouldn’t but mum could never use the machines properly even before alzheimers and on odd times she tried she would stand there saying the numbers as she pressed them and needed reminding what it was so she always asked us to do it. I know that’s not allowed but it was safer than what mum would do even though I know the bank wouldn’t agree.
I was with mum when she opened the account, when the card came and the pin and explained it all to her and have been checking her statements and explaining them to her ever since she opened it, but yes I know I shouldn’t have

 

[annielou]

thanks @Banjomansmate x
Thats really helpful to know how the benefits work. I know its a bit different for mum without LPA but like you say if we do get deputyship then things will probably go similar. Thank you x

 

[DianeW]

I understand it’s against banks rules, but sometimes needs must and I know myself as carer for numerous relatives have indeed used their card with their consent for years.

And I bet there are lots more people doing it too.

 

[imthedaughter]

Hi again @annielou the money (savings) in mum's account under the £24k-ish limit is mum's and can't be taken.

The DWP will need to be informed as AA stops. LA will tell you how much mum will need to pay back but it will be roughly whatever her pension income is, minus any essential expenses and £24.90 which is her allowance.

She should be left with the £24.90 each week at a minimum. This can then be put into her float at the home or kept in her account.

Getting official control of her bank account should be possible with deputyship.

 

[Susan11]

I asked this on my usual thread but then thought maybe this is better place for it, so apologies for repeating myself and asking twice x
My mum is currently in a CH being assessed for permanent care after two weeks in hospital, if she needs permanent care which everybody has been saying she does then she will be LA funded . My questions are about her personal allowance from her benefits and the money she has currently in her bank account.
Nobody has LPA for mum but if they say after assessment she no longer has capacity we will probably apply for deputyship for mum if possible. I'm an appointee for mums benefits with DWP and for years mum has given verbal permission to me and my husband to draw out money and pay her bills. She doesn't think there is anything wrong with her so didn't see need for an LPA as she thought she could just carry on with us doing things for her as and when.
Currently mum gets state pension, pension credit and attendance allowance all paid direct into her bank account. I understand her benefits will go towards her care and she will only get a small allowance each week, but how is this paid? Will it go into her bank account like her benefits did previously or will it be given to the CH to hand out?
The CH mum is in at moment for a short stay during assessment is one she will likely stay at if made permanent. Today we got paperwork to fill in on mums behalf for residency agreement. It had a form in for Personal Allowance contract for optional extras that care costs don't cover, which it says most residents find it convenient for the home to pay for them on their behalf out of an individual cash float for them held by the home to avoid them holding too much cash themselves/in their rooms. We can choose which things on list we want to include if we want to do that. They ask for an initial deposit and give a receipt and afterwards keep a record which we can ask for at any time.
I think it would be a good idea rather than mum and them having to wonder if she'll remember to pay right amount for things like hairdresser etc, but I wondered if that means all her personal allowance money left from her benefits goes automatically into her personal cash float, or if she is given personal allowance and then we top up the float?
My other question is about mums bank account which currently has some money in but not above limits she should have to pay towards her care, but if mum goes into a CH permanently what happens to the money in mums account, will SS take it, or is it still mums money?
If it is still mums money and not taken out for her car,e as we don't have LPA for mum who takes over looking after mums account? At moment mum gives us verbal permission to draw out money and to pay her bills but if in CH permanently I assume that won't continue, does SS take control over it or if we apply for deputyship can we look after it and use it for mum ?

Can I suggest you don't leave any cash or anything of value in your Mum's room in the CH? Things tend to go missing . I'm not suggesting they're stolen but they tend to get moved around.

 

[Bunpoots]

I understand it’s against banks rules, but sometimes needs must and I know myself as carer for numerous relatives have indeed used their card with their consent for years.

And I bet there are lots more people doing it too.

So do I! My aunt’s bank let me have a card for her account when she asked them to (So I could help officially) my dad’s refused - not very helpful ?. Both of them had their pins written down and I knew both pins - and anyone stood behind them would have too. I often used to help them input their pin to stop them getting their little piece of paper out.

Banking needs to be made easier for people with memory problems to keep their accounts safe and accessible to themselves.

 

[annielou]

Thanks for your replies and help xxxx
Mum was in her late 50s when she opened her bank account because she needed an account to have her small redundancy payment from her previous job and wages from her new job paid into, she never got to grips with using her bank card and pin, was always worried she'd forget the number or do it wrong and it would eat her card so she always got me to do it. I tried to teach her at first, and often afterwards, I'd tell her what to do and whisper her number so she could do it but she used to get in a flap and say Just do it for me Andie. Wrong I know, but better than mum standing there at the machine getting a note out with pin number on and standing at the machine saying 1234 (that's not really her pin) and £100 and Do I, er Yes I do want a receipt, as she pressed keys so anyone could hear her, know her pin and how much money she'd just got out.
Our main problem will be sorting mums money out now as we can't carry on doing that for mum and until someone has deputyship her money will just be sitting there with benefits going in but no way of getting it out to pay relevant parties. I don't mind paying money to CH for mums personal allowance so she can use extra services there and buying her clothes, toiletries, magazines etc myself out of my own money, I was always buying her bits and pieces anyway, but if DWP and SS want benefits taking out of mums account or moving between them then I won't be able to authorise anything like that so unless they have a way round it that could be a problem for a while.
I'm appointee for mums benefits so when we know whats happening with mum, if staying permanently in CH, I can contact DWP on her behalf and tell them whats happened and where she is. I did consider writing to them now saying she had been in hospital and was currently being assessed for future care needs/probably permanent care in a CH but my sister said to wait as nothing is definite yet and it could complicate matters with them starting processing things before things decided with mums care.
It would all have been easier with LPA in place I'm sure but though mum thought they were a good idea, she thought she wouldn't need one and she could just carry on giving us permission to do and talk to people on her behalf. On odd occasions she did think it might be good to do one, but we didn't have any one who knew mum long enough to sign to say she understood it and agreed to do it ourselves and with covid going to a solicitor was difficult plus mum rarely recognised me as her daughter and we weren't sure if that would make things difficult and so hadn't got it sorted before this happened so now we'll just have to manage best we can.

 

[Louise7]

I'm appointee for mums benefits so when we know whats happening with mum, if staying permanently in CH, I can contact DWP on her behalf and tell them whats happened and where she is. I did consider writing to them now saying she had been in hospital and was currently being assessed for future care needs/probably permanent care in a CH but my sister said to wait as nothing is definite yet and it could complicate matters with them starting processing things before things decided with mums care.

@annielou You really need to let the DWP know now, rather than wait until a decision is made about permanent care. Attendance allowance is stopped after 28 days in hospital, and also after the first 28 days in a care home (if you are not self-funding). As your mum went straight from the hospital to the care home the DWP may link the two periods together. Give them a call to let them know the date that your mum went into hospital and the date that she went from hospital into the care home. They won't stop your mum's attendance allowance in advance if you notify them now - they will wait to see what the position is when approaching the 28 day limit. It will complicate matters more if you later find out that there has been an overpayment of benefits that will need to be repaid.

 

[Pete1]

Hi @annielou, the first six weeks following discharge from hospital should be free of contribution (i'm sure the Social Work team will confirm that). The process has already been outlined re contribution (the Local Authority will pay the care home direct and recover contributions from Mum). There should be guidance on their website, but you can pick up the phone and talk to the Financial Assessment Team and they will help you with the process - they deal with situations like Mum's all the time. Importantly though, please don't worry about it, it really isn't an immediate or pressing issue and the Local Authority will help you through the process, they will understand that Deputyship takes some time to resolve.

 

[annielou]

Thanks @Louise7 @Pete1 xx
In that case I think I will contact DWP to let them know dates mum went in hospital and onto CH for assessment so they already know dates and if need to stop AA they can do it when should rather than pay it and have to recover it later as that will probably be more complicated.
Hospital SW rang my sister yesterday and said mums CH place is continuing to be paid for by NHS and there will be a meeting in a few weeks which we can attend if we like to discuss if they carry on contributing to it or not. I assume that if mums assessment is finished then and mum is to stay in CH then it will switch to LA funding then and that's when we'll need to organise other things.

 

[Lynmax]

I wonder if your Mum is being funded by the Covid money given to the NHS to free up hospital beds? My mum was discharged to a care home at the end of April with this funding and it is still continuing to pay the care home directly. The letter we have says that the funding will cease at the end of the emergency when mum, who has been assessed, will be a self funder. We don't know when the funding will cease but are expecting to hear fairly soon.

All my mum currently has to contribute is for her personal needs, which, as the home is still not allowing visitors such as hairdressers, are very low.

 

[annielou]

Thanks @Lynmax x
I think it was and may still be but not sure exactly. The hospital SW said mums CH place during assessment process would be funded by covid fund as during covid it was preffered to get patients out of hospital for assessment instead of doing it in hospital. Then she said that covid funding ended on 31st August so after that mum would switch to client contribution via SS. Yesterday she rang my sister and said mums place will continue to be funded by NHS and a meeting will be held in a few weeks to decide if they will continue funding it. On mums Resident agreement form I got to sign from the CH yesterday it said mums fee is paid by CCG (funded nursing care) currently. So I'm not sure if the fund has been extended after 31st of August as covid is still ongoing as hospital SW didn't go in to details with sis on phone but said the NHS are continuing to pay for it at the moment.
I've filled in the personal allowance contract and sent a £100 cx deposit with it back to the home which I expect might last a while at the moment as like you say there won't be a lot to spend it on at moment.