Financial misconduct

[Phillyhing]

Good afternoon all

I wonder if anyone can help? My Father sadly passed away in January however on closing his finances down we discovered that his partner had transferred over 30 thousand pounds into her bank accounts over the last 12 months of his life. She had obtained a third party mandate from the bank and had it witnessed by her Niece. My father had been diagnosed with Vascular dimentia back in 2008 and the mandate was obtained in April 2015. Can anyone advise if this is legal as the Banks answer was they wouldn't check if the witness had a different name ?

Many thanks
Phil

 

[Helly68]

I think you need either a CAB or a session with a solicitor to get a definitive view on this.

Even though your father had a dementia diagnosis, there may be an issue about whether he had "capacity" - i.e. he knew what his partner was doing and was happy for it to happen. Despite having a dementia diagnosis it is still possible to demonstrate capacity.

In terms of banks, it sounds as though they did what they felt was necessary at the time, so unless you can prove that they haven't followed their own procedures, I doubt you would be able to pursue anything from that angle.

 

[Rosettastone57]

Good afternoon all

I wonder if anyone can help? My Father sadly passed away in January however on closing his finances down we discovered that his partner had transferred over 30 thousand pounds into her bank accounts over the last 12 months of his life. She had obtained a third party mandate from Natwest bank and had it witnessed by her Niece. My father had been diagnosed with Vascular dimentia back in 2008 and the mandate was obtained in April 2015. Can anyone advise if this is legal as the Banks answer was they wouldn't check if the witness had a different name ?

Many thanks
Phil

If your father had capacity at the time and was happy with the arrangement, I'm not sure you can pursue this. Perhaps others will be along soon with better advice

 

[Phillyhing]

I think you need either a CAB or a session with a solicitor to get a definitive view on this.

Even though your father had a dementia diagnosis, there may be an issue about whether he had "capacity" - i.e. he knew what his partner was doing and was happy for it to happen. Despite having a dementia diagnosis it is still possible to demonstrate capacity.

In terms of banks, it sounds as though they did what they felt was necessary at the time, so unless you can prove that they haven't followed their own procedures, I doubt you would be able to pursue anything from that angle.

 

[Phillyhing]

Thanks for your response .... I should have seen the warning signs earlier as his partner kept on saying a year before he died that he has no idea about how much money he had ? I thought she was acting in his best interests but sadly not !! She also called me to say Dad was unconscious in resus on the Friday morning before he passed on the Sunday he never regained conciousnes during that time however during that period she took a further 2800 pounds with 850 removed the day after he died.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

Was this woman your father's partner for long? Could it be she was scared - because they weren't married - that she would be left without funds when he died?

On the surface, her actions seem appalling but I think you have no chance of recovering the money. If she says your dad wanted her to have the money you'd have a hard time proving otherwise. Did anyone have POA? Maybe it would depend on what stage your father was deemed to have lost capacity. If you could prove she took the money after that time you might get somewhere, but it would be incredibly costly to sort out. (And she may no longer have the money...) Does she benefit from his estate? (Not sure of the legal status of non-married partners but plenty of members here who do know and will help!)

 

[Phillyhing]

Was this woman your father's partner for long? Could it be she was scared - because they weren't married - that she would be left without funds when he died?

On the surface, her actions seem appalling but I think you have no chance of recovering the money. If she says your dad wanted her to have the money you'd have a hard time proving otherwise. Did anyone have POA? Maybe it would depend on what stage your father was deemed to have lost capacity. If you could prove she took the money after that time you might get somewhere, but it would be incredibly costly to sort out. (And she may no longer have the money...) Does she benefit from his estate? (Not sure of the legal status of non-married partners but plenty of members here who do know and will help!)

 

[Phillyhing]

They were together for 28 years .... however her first husband left her very well cared for ....i have contacted the FOS as i believe the Bank allowed her to sign and return the mandate forms without my father being present ? The bereavement team alerted me to the fact that his signature was illegible and very shaky ? I have been led to understand that the bank have now tightened up their mandate procedures since this event ....

 

[Helly68]

I agree with Jadednfaded, this will be tough to prove. I think legal and financial advice from professionals about the mandate forms but even if there may have been an error in procedure, after the event I am not sure what the chances of challenging this would be.
As an aside, the banks I have dealt with seem worryingly ignorant about POA and financial management for and on behalf of those who lack capacity.

This may seem naive, and apologies if innapropriate, but is it actually worth asking her what the money was used for? I think we can all see how it looks, but is there a possibility that the funds we used for a purpose - other than the obvious? If you have POA is this something you could look at?

 

[love.dad.but..]

The authority of POA ceases on death. I can see this going a few ways if you ask her, she may answer honestly or not and how will you know either way and if you feel it is an unsatisfactory reply what then canyou do with the info or she may say although not married I was your dad's partner for 28 years and any arrangement was between us and whilst he had mental capacity we discussed money matters and his wishes or whilst I respect you are his daughter it is nothing to do with you. I understand your concern and how it looks but not sure you will get the answers you want. I think banks now require the person who holds the account but wants mandate added to be present at the bank and that is a good thing so they can see for themselves that the person has mental capacity in their judgement to understand and are not being coerced.

 

[Phillyhing]

Than you all for your replys... I will wait and see what the FOS have to say as they are now investigating this .. can I assume that as soon as my father passes away any funds should be immediately protected as in his last will and testament ? Does this mean as the sole Executor and beneficiary as she took monies out of his account after he passed is she technically committing theft from myself ?

 

[love.dad.but..]

Is the partner sole executor and are you main beneficiary?

 

[Phillyhing]

Is the partner sole executor and are you main beneficiary?

 

[Phillyhing]

No I am the sole Executor and sole Beneficiary....

 

[love.dad.but..]

Ok..having been executor for my dad's estate..my understanding is that any accounts in your dad's sole name should be frozen as soon as the bank are notified of the death and this should be done asap after the date of death. Following that it is usual for them to release funds to a funeral director to settle their account.Any joint accounts with residue funds automatically pass to the other named joint ac holder. If your dad's death was likely then I can see that his partner has taken the opportunity for whatever reason under mandate to withdraw funds but nothing should be taken after death as the funds form part of his estate and any debts have to be settled and possibly depending on estate value probate sought before the executor can release monetary bequests. Was there a delay in informing the bank which unfortunately gave the partner the opportunity to withdraw? As his partner perhaps their arrangement included amounts for her...housekeeping, food, household bills or whatever.

 

[Kevinl]

As they've been partners for more than 2 years, she's been living with him and possibly financially supported or assisted by him you do have to consider she could make a claim against the estate for "reasonable provision", if he's left her nothing I could see she might have a good case.
That said syphoning money off and certainly taking money after he passed away do sound wrong you would have to prove the money she took before he died was taken without his consent.
A diagnosis of AZ doesn't prove a lack of capacity and I'm not clear (sorry if I've missed anything) but was this done by her under a Lasting Power of Attorney or just using a third party mandate from the bank?
K

 

[Phillyhing]

It took a couple of days for her to give me his account details so I could close his account..... I questioned her about the funds she took after he passed and she lied to me twice then told me she just took it and that she was fed up of me asking .... she originally told me it was to settle his care Bill from a private arrangement she had with someone she knew ....

 

[Phillyhing]

As they've been partners for more than 2 years, she's been living with him and possibly financially supported or assisted by him you do have to consider she could make a claim against the estate for "reasonable provision", if he's left her nothing I could see she might have a good case.
That said syphoning money off and certainly taking money after he passed away do sound wrong you would have to prove the money she took before he died was taken without his consent.
A diagnosis of AZ doesn't prove a lack of capacity and I'm not clear (sorry if I've missed anything) but was this done by her under a Lasting Power of Attorney or just using a third party mandate from the bank?
K

No

 

[Phillyhing]

No she just a a third party mandate countersigned and witnessed by her Niece....

 

[love.dad.but..]

It maybe fairly irrelevant now but did you hold poa for finance and was this registered with your dad's bank?