Financial misconduct

[Jaded'n'faded]

I checked up on this (for various reasons!)

After 28 years together, she would definitely have a claim against you if your dad did not make adequate provision for her in his will and you are the only other beneficiary.

I don't think the fact her first husband left her 'well cared for' is relevant. After 28 years with your dad, don't you think she is entitled to something from his estate?

(I'm not saying the amount she took is right or the way in which she took it.)

 

[Kevinl]

S

No she just a a third party mandate countersigned and witnessed by her Niece....

So with no POA in place the Court of Protection may just say it's a "civil matter" as someone with a POA or CoP deputyship has legal obligations abuse of a position of trust outside of the CoP "system" seems to happen all the time with very little action being taken.
K

 

[Phillyhing]

There was no PoA in place at all ... they were completely financially independent as they both had separate family's...ie myself and she also had a son. The past five years bank statements show she took approx 3000 per year until the last 12 months which coincided with my fathers illness getting worse where she took 33000 from his account in 12 months .....

 

[love.dad.but..]

Whether she was entitled to withdraw the money or not, whether your dad had sufficient meaningful mental capacity to make financial decisions or not I think you will have difficulty in proving any of this either way and to try to do so legally will be costly so as hard as this may be you may have to accept that as executor you now have control over his remaining estate. @Jaded'n'faded makes a good point if she decides to contest your dad's will and can argue regardless of other inheritances that your dad should have made a nominal bequest to her as his partner of 28 years. Perhaps you can seek advice from a specialist source.

 

[Kevinl]

your dad should have made a nominal bequest to her as his partner of 28 years. Perhaps you can seek advice from a specialist source.

The law states "reasonable provision" and that relates to her future needs not what happened in the last and certainly not "nominal".
Imagine if they'd divorced after 28 years together instead of him passing away, what would a divorce court consider "reasonable provision"? A 50/50 split of assets isn't uncommon.
K

 

[love.dad.but..]

The law states "reasonable provision" and that relates to her future needs not what happened in the last and certainly not "nominal".
Imagine if they'd divorced after 28 years together instead of him passing away, what would a divorce court consider "reasonable provision"? A 50/50 split of assets isn't uncommon.
K

Fair enough...change the word nominal for reasonable...

 

[Phillyhing]

I totally understand it's hard to prove however the Bank has to accept some responsibility as he was a vulnerable consumer ..... he was never present in the bank ...never contacted and his signature was illegible as admitted by bereavement services ....

 

[Sirena]

So are you saying that you are looking to reclaim the money from the bank because they were negligent in granting the mandate?

 

[Phillyhing]

Yes indeed ....

 

[Sirena]

Yes indeed ....

From what you've said it does sound as if their procedures were sloppy. I hope you are successful.

 

[Phillyhing]

Totally appalled with them ....especially as they have now admitted they have tightened up their procedures ...

 

[love.dad.but..]

I totally understand it's hard to prove however the Bank has to accept some responsibility as he was a vulnerable consumer ..... he was never present in the bank ...never contacted and his signature was illegible as admitted by bereavement services ....

When my mum died suddenly 6 years ago we were desperate to help dad with getting cash
etc whilst we set about getting poa registered. He was very traumatised even with his dementia in the days and weeks after and he completed a 3rd party mandate form which I took along with a very brief letter he had written to meet with his bank manager whilst taking mum's death cert etc. However his signature had changed so much from a lovely quite complex one to print. The manager whilst very sympathetic to our plight and recognising the request was genuine said that if she presented the form to their head office it would be rejected as the signature that dad had signed looked nothing like the one on their records. I totally understood and she was very apologetic. We assisted dad until poa came through by which time in fact he had lost meaningful mental capacity. The manager told me the amount of familial fraud was an increasing serious problem. So maybe the FOS will be able to give you clarity on this matter. I have just looked at my bank's 3rd party mandate form and the bank official has to sign to confirm the account holder is present so at least steps have improved. Whether even with that safeguard in place it would have changed anything for your dad who knows...he may still have verbally confirmed that he wanted 3rd party mandate. However if his mental capacity at that time was borderline it may have deterred the partner from persuing if it was at her instigation with ulterior motive or alerted the bank that all was not as it seems even if it was designed to help him with his finances. Perhaps though she may have arranged poa instead so your dad would still have been vulnerable.I hope you get answers.

 

[Phillyhing]

Many thanks for your responses I hope the FOS are able to uphold my complaint and I will ensure I feed back any information back into the forum.

 

[Banjomansmate]

Going back to basics, surely taking money from your father’s account the day after he died could be considered theft? Whether or not the bank had been informed, the moment he died then you as executor were in control of all his goods and chattels and you did not give permission, and indeed could not until the will was proved, for her to continue to withdraw money and she had no right to do so.

 

[Lawson58]

This all sounds very sad to me and I am sorry that things have turned out as they have.

This lady was with your dad for 28 years and she consistently took out 3000 pounds a year which doesn't sound a huge amount considering their relationship. The bank may have stuffed up here but it seems to me that this is not the real issue. The way you speak about her sounds as if your relationship with her was difficult and that you resent her. If she had been married to your father, the outcome of his death may have been very different for her. I get the feeling that she was looking after her own interests because she was aware of what you thought of her.

Good or bad, she gave your dad 28 years and as much as you think you know what things were like between them, you really don't. 30,000 pounds isn't much reward for 28 years.

You don't want to let this consume you. Life is too short to let money wreck your state of mind.

Sorry if I have this wrong or that it's not what you want to hear.

 

[Baker17]

This all sounds very sad to me and I am sorry that things have turned out as they have.

This lady was with your dad for 28 years and she consistently took out 3000 pounds a year which doesn't sound a huge amount considering their relationship. The bank may have stuffed up here but it seems to me that this is not the real issue. The way you speak about her sounds as if your relationship with her was difficult and that you resent her. If she had been married to your father, the outcome of his death may have been very different for her. I get the feeling that she was looking after her own interests because she was aware of what you thought of her.

Good or bad, she gave your dad 28 years and as much as you think you know what things were like between them, you really don't. 30,000 pounds isn't much reward for 28 years.

You don't want to let this consume you. Life is too short to let money wreck your state of mind.

Sorry if I have this wrong or that it's not what you want to hear.

I have to say I have to agree with you I’m going through similar with a stepson( he’s 52 by the way) and I’ve been with his father for 43 years. I’m also sorry if I have this wrong or it’s not what you want to hear

 

[Ohso]

My advice would be check with the bank, the legality of what happened, then if you are convinced she took the money in full knowledge he had died, then take it further, with her initially then legally.
I know others have said she was with your dad a long time, which also gave him plenty of time to make provision for her, by changing his will etc, it would be interesting to know when a will was written in your favour.
No one ever knows what goes on behind closed doors and 28 years together could mean 28 blissfully Happy years or could be 28 years of tolerating each other....

I wonder if it was she that had died and your dad who had taken the money, would the beneficiary be told, "well after 28 years he deserved it too..."?

 

[Lawson58]

I agree. They had 28 years to marry and/or to consider their financial future. They were independent financially. There is no such thing as common law marriage. I don't think the partner would have much of a claim on the estate - but on the other hand I don"t think there's much chance of getting the money back, apart from the amount taken after his death.

And sometimes people don't understand why it is necessary to set those provisions in stone or understand that not being married changes things. Many people die without making a will at all but have had years to sort those things out. Maybe she wouldn't be entitled to a claim on his estate but does that mean that she shouldn't have had an allowance of some kind while they were together? Without knowing much about their relationship, it's hard to make assumptions about what happened.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

This woman definitely could claim against the estate, under the Inheritance Act, 1975. (Provision for Family and Defendants) and could be awarded maybe 50%.

People who live together for 28 years do not 'live off their own money'.

If I were you I would be very careful how you proceed. I've no idea how big your father's estate is, but if this woman has taken £30G + and your dad's estate is worth more than twice that, you may have got off lightly. Maybe accept what she has done through gritted teeth and keep fingers crossed she doesn't contest the will.

My BF's family recently went through a similar case with their 'stepmother' after his father died. The couple had met late in life and both had grown up families so they made wills leaving everything to their own families and even included a Deed of Trust to say they would not claim off the other's estate. The house belonged to BF's father - she sold hers (and kept all the money!) when she moved in with him, though provision was made for her to remain in the house the rest of her life. In the event of BF's father's death, her two grown up sons took over. The will was contested, the Deed of Trust completely disregarded and this woman got more than half the estate. She died two weeks after the cheque was sent so her sons (both millionaires!) copped for the lot - definitely NOT what BF's father had intended. Oh - and it cost my BF's family more than £35G in legal fees too.

Your situation is difficult and I feel for you, but continuing to challenge this woman may open a worse can of worms...!

 

[Sirena]

The partner transferred £3k a year for five years (£15k) and then £33k in the last 12 months of the OP's father's life. That is a *lot* of money in a short space of time and if I was the OP I would definitely be questioning it. It can't be assumed it was done in good faith/he wanted her to have it/she was 'owed it' in some way. But the main issue is with the bank's procedures which have allowed these questions to arise.

As to whether she could claim on the estate, the Will may have been written in a way to show why he did not want her to be a beneficiary. We have no idea.