Best Way To Pay Care Home Top-Up?

[Snapshot]

My mom has gone into a CH. It's a very good place. She's getting mostly LA funding with a small top-up needing to be paid. I've now been sent a standing order form. What's the best way to set up payments? We haev not got a PofA or Deputyship set up yet.

Would it be best at present to just set up a standing-order to pay the top-up from my bank account at present then change it to paying from her account or a trust set up for her in the future?

Sorry if this question seems rambling.

 

[2jays]

Hi

The best way to pay a top up is

Don't pay it.

Unless you have requested a sea view or a larger room you do not legally have to pay a top up.

Oh the LA will tell you you have to but you don't, if the care home is the one that is most suitable, LA have to fund the full amount.

Edited: as I understand it, it is illegal for the LA to get you to pay, but (in my opinion) that doesn't stop them asking you to.

 

[ITBookworm]

My understanding of top ups is that the person needing care is absolutely NOT allowed to pay their own top up. If they could afford the top up from their own funds the LA would not be paying as much for their care.

Hope you can get things sorted with the LA so that they are not necessarily.

 

[Saffie]

Would it be best at present to just set up a standing-order to pay the top-up from my bank account at present then change it to paying from her account or a trust set up for her in the future?

IT bookworm is correct. Top-ups have to be paid by someone other than the resident for the reason given by IT. I'm surprised the LA hasn't told you that.

2jays is right too, that you cannot be made to pay any topups unless the home offered to your mother can fulfill her needs but has been rejected by you for another reason not connected to her essential care. good luck.

 

[jaymor]

ITbookworm is correct. If a top up is paid then it has to be paid by a third party, it cannot be the person in care. Top ups do not stay at the level you start at. So if it is yourself who has to pay the top up be prepared for it to rise at least annually. It could soon become too big a burden for you to afford.

The LA should have given you a list of homes that cover the care required and that their contribution covers. The LA won't pay for a larger room or a garden view as this is not care. They won't pay for a home that charges more because they have nursing care if the person entering the home does not need this care. You have a choice and if you choose a dearer home, a larger room or a garden view then you will have to pay the top up.

Jay

 

[geum123]

Hi Snapshot,
I refused to pay my Dads top-up even though it was for a very small amount, and have since read about a few people who are now in dire financial straights because the fees, and thus the top-ups have risen so much.

As others have stated you are under no obligation personally to pay a top-up.

 

[jenniferpa]

I don't understand this - I was under the impression that if the chosen CH's fees were more than the LA would pay then a top up HAD to be paid. And why can't the top up be paid for by the person receiving the care? If the LA chose the CH then I agree that no top up should be paid, but if the relative or the person needing the care chose the CH, then there is no alternative than to pay, surely?

The fact is, top-ups only come into play if the LA is wholly or partially funding care. And if that's the case, the LA MUST be able to provide a suitable home that does not require a top-up. This is actually the law. And the person being funded can't pay the top-up except in very restricted circumstances (generally relating to property). This is also written into the law.

The issue is that often there isn't a suitable home that can really meet the person's needs (not just care needs but also such things as social needs - e.g. within a suitable distance so that family can visit). In this situation often the LA will claim that it's the person's (or the family's) choice to move to the more expensive home thus meaning that top-ups need to be paid. However, this is often not an real choice. If there are no options to meet the person's needs as the LA regular rate, then the LA needs to pay the extra fee.

It's like being told "you must have either a cake for £2 or a biscuit for 50p, but we don't have any biscuits, so you must purchase a cake" - an inherently unfair bargain and one they aren't permitted to make.

 

[geum123]

The fact is, top-ups only come into play if the LA is wholly or partially funding care. And if that's the case, the LA MUST be able to provide a suitable home that does not require a top-up. This is actually the law. And the person being funded can't pay the top-up except in very restricted circumstances (generally relating to property). This is also written into the law.

The issue is that often there isn't a suitable home that can really meet the person's needs (not just care needs but also such things as social needs - e.g. within a suitable distance so that family can visit). In this situation often the LA will claim that it's the person's (or the family's) choice to move to the more expensive home thus meaning that top-ups need to be paid. However, this is often not an real choice. If there are no options to meet the person's needs as the LA regular rate, then the LA needs to pay the extra fee.

It's like being told "you must have either a cake for £2 or a biscuit for 50p, but we don't have any biscuits, so you must purchase a cake" - an inherently unfair bargain and one they aren't permitted to make.

Spot on Jennifer.

 

[Saffie]

And why can't the top up be paid for by the person receiving the care?

That is because if the person receiving the care could afford to pay the top-up, they'd be paying more of the contribution towards the care home anyway and the LA would be paying less.

 

[jaymor]

Ok, I think I get it! So, if the person requiring care has capital in excess of the £23,000 ish that is the maximum, they will get NO LA help for a CH at all until all their capital has reduced to below that £23,000. So, if they are already in a care home, we need to apply for funding before that money reaches that level, so as to, hopefully, have it in place beforehand? Sorry, but it's so complicated, I just don't understand it all! So, the best thing to do when looking for a CH is to try to find one which is on the LAs list, so as not to have to move the person needing care if top-ups cannot be managed.

Edited to add... I've just read a thread on a totally different subject that mentions the fact that the OPs mum was in a CH paid for mostly by the LA and the Mum in question paid the rest out of her pension. So that means the person who needed care was paying top ups herself, contrary to what other posters have said. I'm even more confused than ever now!

When the LA pay for care in a care home then the person receiving care has attendance allowance and state pension taken off them. If they have a private pension then that is taken too unless they have a spouse and then only half of the private pension is taken. It is nothing to do with top ups.

Jay

 

[jenniferpa]

The truth is, no matter how little you have in terms of savings (as in zero) you will be expected to contribute the major part of state and private pensions (in fact everything except the personal expense allowance of about £23 per week). As jaymor said, this is nothing to do with top-ups which would be over and above the residents assessed contribution.

 

[Snapshot]

Many thanks for all the useful advice and for an enlightening discussion.

In my case, the top-up has arisen because Social Services wanted my mother to move from the elderly psychological ward of the local hospital to a care home on the other side of the borough. It would have made visiting very difficult. We found her a place at a care home very close to where she has lived for years with a very good room. The cost was above LA funding hence needing to pay a top-up. I will argue with the LA about the top-up but from what has been said, I think they will say that choosing a local home with a better room was her family's choice. I will pay the top-up via my own bank account for the time being.

 

[Saffie]

I think you could try arguing that placing your mother in a home at such a distance will deprive your mother of close family visits. Worth a try anyway! Good luck.

 

[jaymor]

Please make very sure that you are going to be able to sustain the top up fees. They won't stay at the level asked at the moment, they will be increased at regular intervals. This money can in no way be taken from the sufferers account be it in a trust or being handled via LPA or EPA.

It really is a big responsibility to take on unless there are several of you to split the top up. How long you will be paying it and how much you will end up paying you have no idea.

Try telling them the home they chose was too far away and this would deprive your Mum of family visits and that's not in her best interests.

Jay

 

[birdblack]

Spot on Jennifer.

What hoppens when all your funds are gone? How much does the LA top up and how much do you Putin in. Support you havent any money of your own and cant pay the rest. Are Poas lilablå to pay the fees?

 

[jenniferpa]

What hoppens when all your funds are gone? How much does the LA top up and how much do you Putin in. Support you havent any money of your own and cant pay the rest. Are Poas lilablå to pay the fees?

If you, as an individual (and this has nothing to do with being an attorney because, by law, top-ups fees must be paid by a third party) sign an agreement to pay top up fees you are contractually obliged to do so. If you cease to do that, the LA are within their rights to move your family member to a cheaper home.

If you are talking about straight forward paying for a care home, then a 3rd party cannot be held financially responsible for someone elses care. But that's a different issue to top-ups.

I wondering if what you are talking about is the LA contribution?

 

[birdblack]

If you, as an individual (and this has nothing to do with being an attorney because, by law, top-ups fees must be paid by a third party) sign an agreement to pay top up fees you are contractually obliged to do so. If you cease to do that, the LA are within their rights to move your family member to a cheaper home.

If you are talking about straight forward paying for a care home, then a 3rd party cannot be held financially responsible for someone elses care. But that's a different issue to top-ups.

I wondering if what you are talking about is the LA contribution?

I Signed a contract with My fathers Current home as à self funder and it makes me responsible for paying the fee along with My father but what happens if the funds run out and I can't afford the top ups. And how much do the local council pay in such circumstances.

 

[birdblack]

No physio still after two months

I Signed a contract with My fathers Current home as à self funder and it makes me responsible for paying the fee along with My father but what happens if the funds run out and I can't afford the top ups. And how much do the local council pay in such circumstances.

Also my dad's care home said in the contract that physio was included in the price. However, he has been in two months and they still have not employed a physiotherapist and have referred him to the nhs. Surely, if they said at the start they were recruiting someone and still have not done so this is not correct and should give a reduction in the price. He fell on a ward and broke a hip and is now in a wheelchair although he can stand he can't walk properly and is not getting any physio support. I tried to bring this up with the manager and all they could put forward was nhs referee and a complaint that I was copying part of the care plan. So what? Do I work for the news of the world? Red herring.

 

[jenniferpa]

OK - your father is a self-funder. When your father's assets drop to below the upper limit (£23250) or even before, you should contact the LA to get a financial assessment. At that point the LA will tell you how much they are prepared to pay for the home - your father will be expected to contribute any pensions (less a personal expense allowance) plus tariff income of £1 per £250 of saving per week.

If the LA is only prepared to pay (say) £500, and the home cost £750, you are going to have to make a decision - find a home that will accept the LA contribution, or pay the excess personally. I would never suggest the latter. In fact, if he is settled in the home and moving him would cause him distress or make it harder for family and friend to vist, for example, you should argue that such a move would be detrimental. If the LA agrees, then they will have to up their payments.

What you can take from this is that even as an attorney you do not have to subsidize your father's care. You may choose to, but you don't have to.

 

[Silver Bowler]

There are a few details you have not told us. For a quick reply I am going from memory so figures may not be exact.
(1) What do you mean by a top-up? As I understand it then patients with more than £23,500 pay 100%. Below that she pays a contribution until she is reduced to £14,500.
(2) The CH may charge more than the 'reasonable amount' that the council think a CH should charge. Are you agreeing with the Council or are you challenging it?
(2) You do not indicate if the amounts to be paid before PoA arrives are trivial or may add up to thousands of pounds. If she had not set up a PoA then why not tell the Council and the CH you are applying for power of attorney which is obviously going to take time and you will settle the account as soon as you are legally allowed to use her assets? The patient has the debt not you. Nobody can assume you are well off and ask you to use your own assets or illegally your mother's. Negotiate by letter. People say outrageous things they would not risk putting into print. A reasonable CH would know about the delay in getting a PoA when the patient is not longer competent to manage her affairs. If you vaguely mentioned 'I need to ask my solicitor' they would give up hope of getting money quickly.
(3) You do not say if you signed any papers when asking the CH to accept her. That could overrule everything.
(4) 'Setting up a trust'. A bit unusual. Not obvious how a trust could do anything with her assets that a PoA cannot do. You would need good legal advice. The responsibilities of her executor(s) would need to be clarified relative to those of her Attorney.

It is so difficult coping with these demands when you are suffering from the stress of you mother going into care. That is when you can get exploited. Stick up for yourself and remember your rights.

My mom has gone into a CH. It's a very good place. She's getting mostly LA funding with a small top-up needing to be paid. I've now been sent a standing order form. What's the best way to set up payments? We have not got a PofA or Deputyship set up yet.

Would it be best at present to just set up a standing-order to pay the top-up from my bank account at present then change it to paying from her account or a trust set up for her in the future?

Sorry if this question seems rambling.