So bizarre !

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
25,083
0
South coast
The wanting to throw herself out of the chair is very worrying and I don't know if there is any way to unpick that and see what might be going on.
That has reminded me - didnt the consultant say that he thought she was overdosed/having drug interactions? Am I right in remembering that he wanted to strip her of all medication, but this didnt happen due to her downturn?

The reason Im querying this is because when mum reached the stage when she was put on palliative care she wasnt able to swallow anything so she couldnt take any medication. I had a talk with the doctor and he either said it was usual, or common (I cant remember which) to discontinue all medication at that stage. All she had was her "just in case" medication, and that was only in the final couple of days.

Could you ask the consultant whether it is still appropriate for your MIL to continue with all her medication? It might be that although her medication wont be "stripped" in the carefully monitored way that the consultant had probably intended, it might, in fact appropriate for them to be stopped. I definitely think it is worth asking. Anything that might bring your MIL comfort and peace.
 

Ann Mac

Registered User
Oct 17, 2013
3,693
0
Morning everyone x

Spamar, we have had a couple of good thunder storms in the last week - not much lightening, but loud rumbles that have had Seamus the dog crying like a baby, and torrential rain. Its also been very hot and humid, too. At the moment we seem back to warmth and a fair bit of sunshine, thankfully. I have - from what I can mae out - two families of sparrows at the feeders at the moment. That's definitely down on the numbers from last year though, as are the blue and great tit numbers, whilst most of the other birds seem to have increased.

2jays - I am so sorry that you have been poorly again - but very glad that you made your sons wedding and that it was such a wonderful day xxxx

Thank you to you, and to all you other lovely people, for your support - it lifts me to be able to come here and read your advice and of your experiences, because it all helps so much xxxx

The falls issue is getting to be a major problem. When oldest and I arrived to visit Mil yesterday, we were told that Mil was in her room, on 15 minute obs, because of that very thing. However, she had still managed to wriggle/writhe her way out of her chair several times, inbetween obs. By some miracle, she hasn't sustained any major injuries, though all feel its only a matter of time before she really does hurt herself. She is however, badly bruised on her arms and legs, with a couple of minor skin tears too. The staff went through all the options and things they had tried with Mil. They have tried propping her up in bed with a rail, but she screams blue murder and gets really agitated, demanding that they 'let her go'. The recliner works for a limited time, usually when she has someone sat by her giving her one to one attention, but eventually the agitation kicks in again, and she becomes 'almost hysterical'. She has also come close to wriggling herself off even the recliner, a couple of times - and the general feeling is that if she manages to 'fall off' a chair like that, then she is more likely to sustain serious injury, so they don't feel its safe to put a recliner in her room for now. She does remain calmer, in her room, on an ordinary upright arm chair and with sensor mats around her. But that isn't working well either, because even when she seems quite calm, the mats are going off all the time because she is on the floor again. As much as they are able, they have staff with her for long periods on a one to one basis, but they simple can't do it all the time. No one can work out why she is doing it - if its because she is uncomfortable, if its because her delusions and general unrest leave her thinking she has to 'go somewhere', or what. They think a waist strap will add to her agitation. Besides which, its 'restraint' and can't be used until the usual best interest or whatever meetings are held to sanction it. The staff was obviously concerned and very frustrated and willing to consider any suggestions from me - but I can't come up with anything either. I'd be grateful for suggestions, if any of you have any.

Canary, I also got a chance to speak to Nurse D, the staff who phoned me originally about the medication strip - its as you say, that is now all up in the air because of Mil's deterioration, though they are still trying to pin the consultant down to an 'urgent' best interest meeting. However, Mil is now so non-compliant with meds that more than half the time, she isn't having them, she is just refusing point blank. I would prefer them stopped completely - Nurse D confirmed that it is extremely unlikely that at this point they bring Mil any benefit at all. And I have concerns for another reason too. I told you guys that I'd gone and bought a load of lip balms/salves and vaseline products on our last visit, because of Mil's lips being so cracked and dry. I'd also noticed her tongue was 'white' . Now I know that from my care worker days as 'cotton mouth', and have always been told that its linked to both dehydration and likely to be caused by medication. As well as the cracked lips being really sore, the 'white tongue' makes food and drink taste unpleasant. I spoke to Nurse D about it and he confirmed that its yet another recently developed side effect of the medication, in his opinion, and that its a vicious circle. Her lips are sore, making it uncomfortable for her to eat and drink, plus the white tongue makes food taste horrible - so even if hungry she refuses, which makes dehydration more likely and both the condition and her agitation worse. I'd been in to see Mil, briefly, before going to see Nurse D, and again Mils lips were in a mess. I'd also been told that she had again been refusing all food and drink for several hours. I'd searched for and been unable to find any of the balms I'd bought, so had asked, and found that they were being kept on the medication trolly, and being applied each time the nurses did their rounds - so about 4 times a day. Its not enough. I asked for the salves etc, but poor Mils lips were too sore for her to even 'pucker up' for her 'lippy' - though, bless her, she tried - and so I'd instead smeared a lot of vaseline around her mouth. I asked Nurse D to please make sure that the balm was applied far more often. (When I go in today, I'm also taking another small vaseline lip care pot, and I intend to put it on top of her wardrobe in her room, where Mil can't get it- but where we can so we can apply it when we visit!)

I was a bit narked to be honest, about this - if Mil is refusing food and drink because she has just reached that stage, then its one thing. But if she is actually thirsty and hungry, and is refusing because the 'cotton mouth' is making it painful, or because things are tasting bad, its a different matter. Making it less painful by using lip balms will encourage her drink - and the more she drinks, the less the awful taste, so she will also be more likely to eat if she is hungry. Which will relieve one of the possible sources of discomfort for her. Its simple - isn't it? After I raised these concerns, I was told that Mil will now be put on a fluid chart - basically, rather than just monitoring what she is drinking, they will be making a concerted effort to get a set amount into her, and they will be using the balms more often. I just think that it shouldn't have taken me pointing out what is so obvious to get this sorted.

Going back to Mil, the improvement was already really noticiable on her lips, so a passing staff at our request, brought her a drink of fanta - she always loved her fizzy pop. Mil drank nearly two full glasses. From being semi-asleep, she perked up, we got smiles and even some laughs. Her speech became clearer, and she told staff that oldest was her 'niece'. They brought a bowl of soup, and she ate the lot, back to the little bird impersonation, with her mouth opening for more as soon as she had swallowed the previous mouthful. Oldest asked would she like a trifle - and Mil beamed at her, then very deliberately gave a cheeky wink. The trifle vanished extremely quickly too.

It was actually a lovely visit, and we stayed for nearly 2 hours. We had a couple of the sudden rigid spasms and gutteral cries, but mostly she was fairly alert, calm, and even tried to sing along to Moon River and Paddy McGinties Goat. Oldest showed her some photographs and Mil, when she saw a pic of Busta, our oldest mutt, said very clearly 'My favourite dog'. Having said that, physically, again she looked even more frail and her breathing wasn't good. And we several times had to stop her wriggling down in the chair to try and get herself off it.

I am so grateful that it was such a lovely visit, for oldests sake. If she doesn't get to see Mil again, it will at least be a good last memory for her. After oldest went home, she sent me a text that had me nearly in tears. She thanked me for looking after and doing what I can for her Nana, said she felt it must be hard for me after Nana gave me such a hard time when she lived with us, and that she 'really, really appreciated' it.

I'm going to visit Mil again this morning, taking her her own supply of her favourite pop to be kept in her room, so its to hand. Its still limboland, so just taking each day as it comes.

Thank you again, all you lovely peeps. Will keep you updated and much love to all as always xxxxx
 
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2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
Whirling thoughts struggling to find words for you

My thoughts
She needs 1:1 doesn’t she and she needs it now

Because
She needs Vaseline on lips regularly and when lips softer she needs lippy to keep her content
She needs someone very perceptive to be with her to tickle her tastebuds with favourite flavours like her drink

Maybe, and this is contentious... she needs IV fluids and or chemical cosh to “give her a break” from her nightmare

All of which are not easy to provide, except perhaps the 1:1. Are mils funds ample enough for you to arrange one whilst the slow cogs of best interests get sorted and possibly provide for free?

Rambling whirling thoughts that are probably not helpful

xxxxx
 

Ann Mac

Registered User
Oct 17, 2013
3,693
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2jays, I agree 100% - and am going there today with that in mind, now, to find out what I need to do to try and get that in place. This week, I can be there every day, all day or several times a day, as necessary - after that, I have to return to work, and its worrying me. 1-1 was discussed last week and I said we would pay then. I was told 'Not on your nelly' , that if necessary it would be paid for under 117 - she was entitled to it. Today, I am going to argue that it is necessary now and push like crazy for it. At the moment, she is on 15 minute obs, and the staff have now been told to apply the lip balm and offer her favourite drinks each time they go to check on her (I left a bottle of fanta there yesterday, will be taking more that she likes today). If she would only stay in the chair that would be enough, I guess - but it's her falling/wriggling out of the chair that I think is my biggest argument for 1-1, and that's how I intend to approach it. Again, I will make it clear that we will use Mils funds to pay if they can't sort it quickly. Thank you hun xxxxx

I don't think - and neither do the staff - that she would tolerate an IV for fluids, she would remove it and probably do herself more damge as a result. Chemical cosh - I would go for that, just to give her some relief, if I could be sure it would work for her. But because of the damage from the over-medication, firstly there is a chance it won't work with her. And secondly, - from what I can make out from talking to the staff - rendering her out cold , if it can be done, would be a similar scenario to the haliperidol that was previously discussed - almost certain to end her life quickly, and regarded as being very different to simply not prolonging life. Unlikely that any GP or consult will agree to it :( There is talk of switching her from the pain relief patches to morphine - I want to find out if that is likely to bring her relief, being as that seems to be regarded as 'acceptable' in palliative care, and if it is, push for that too, though.
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
As always, you seem to have everything in hand xxx

It’s just the getting what’s best is so hard to do isn’t it.

I know with mum, I had to fight tooth and nail to just get morphine prescribed, and the the - in my opinion - useless waste of space GP prescribed morphine amount that was only available through hospital, not the pharmacy, and so mum was made to wait 8 hours in pain before she was given any. I guess as mil is in nursing as aposed to care home you will not come across that oh so unnecessary agony to watch

Once mum had the morphine, she relaxed. She was in the dying process, and she died within 10hrs of first dose, in her sleep. It could have been oh so much worse for her
 

RedLou

Registered User
Jul 30, 2014
1,161
0
Not much to say. Just wanted to send hugs. 2jays, hope you are feeling better. Hug to you, too!
 

Spamar

Registered User
Oct 5, 2013
7,723
0
Suffolk
OH had fentynal patches when he had undiagnosed vascular problems. He had three-day patches, others are available. He never ever kept it on for the three days, even the one in the centre of his shoulders came off! But they were effective.

Glad it was a good time with mil, much better for everybody.
((((Hugs))))
 
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Slugsta

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
2,758
0
South coast of England
Morning all,

Ann, I am glad that you had a good visit with MIL and that your daughter has seen her Nana. How lovely was that text?!

Yes, 1:1 care does sound necessary. OK, MIL shouldn't have to pay for it but I agree that it is better to pay than wait for the cogs to grind enough for it to be funded :(

You probably remember the situation with Mum (although I don't think I was posting much while I was staying with her)? We had to really fight to get a syringe driver set up rather than subject her to PRN injections (and nurses that would come in, look at her, declare that 'she isn't in pain' and leave again). Even when it was set up, she was still given such a tiny dose that it was almost homeopathic (I take 10-20mg orally in one dose, she was given 7.5mg per day)! :( I think Harold Shipman has a lot to answer for as many GPs are now afraid of giving any/enough morphine at end of life :mad:

2Js, I am sorry that you have been poorly but very glad that you were able to enjoy your son's wedding (((hugs))).

It looks as if it is going to be a lovely day here again :)
 

Havemercy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2012
157
0
Morning everyone x

Spamar, we have had a couple of good thunder storms in the last week - not much lightening, but loud rumbles that have had Seamus the dog crying like a baby, and torrential rain. Its also been very hot and humid, too. At the moment we seem back to warmth and a fair bit of sunshine, thankfully. I have - from what I can mae out - two families of sparrows at the feeders at the moment. That's definitely down on the numbers from last year though, as are the blue and great tit numbers, whilst most of the other birds seem to have increased.

2jays - I am so sorry that you have been poorly again - but very glad that you made your sons wedding and that it was such a wonderful day xxxx

Thank you to you, and to all you other lovely people, for your support - it lifts me to be able to come here and read your advice and of your experiences, because it all helps so much xxxx

The falls issue is getting to be a major problem. When oldest and I arrived to visit Mil yesterday, we were told that Mil was in her room, on 15 minute obs, because of that very thing. However, she had still managed to wriggle/writhe her way out of her chair several times, inbetween obs. By some miracle, she hasn't sustained any major injuries, though all feel its only a matter of time before she really does hurt herself. She is however, badly bruised on her arms and legs, with a couple of minor skin tears too. The staff went through all the options and things they had tried with Mil. They have tried propping her up in bed with a rail, but she screams blue murder and gets really agitated, demanding that they 'let her go'. The recliner works for a limited time, usually when she has someone sat by her giving her one to one attention, but eventually the agitation kicks in again, and she becomes 'almost hysterical'. She has also come close to wriggling herself off even the recliner, a couple of times - and the general feeling is that if she manages to 'fall off' a chair like that, then she is more likely to sustain serious injury, so they don't feel its safe to put a recliner in her room for now. She does remain calmer, in her room, on an ordinary upright arm chair and with sensor mats around her. But that isn't working well either, because even when she seems quite calm, the mats are going off all the time because she is on the floor again. As much as they are able, they have staff with her for long periods on a one to one basis, but they simple can't do it all the time. No one can work out why she is doing it - if its because she is uncomfortable, if its because her delusions and general unrest leave her thinking she has to 'go somewhere', or what. They think a waist strap will add to her agitation. Besides which, its 'restraint' and can't be used until the usual best interest or whatever meetings are held to sanction it. The staff was obviously concerned and very frustrated and willing to consider any suggestions from me - but I can't come up with anything either. I'd be grateful for suggestions, if any of you have any.

Canary, I also got a chance to speak to Nurse D, the staff who phoned me originally about the medication strip - its as you say, that is now all up in the air because of Mil's deterioration, though they are still trying to pin the consultant down to an 'urgent' best interest meeting. However, Mil is now so non-compliant with meds that more than half the time, she isn't having them, she is just refusing point blank. I would prefer them stopped completely - Nurse D confirmed that it is extremely unlikely that at this point they bring Mil any benefit at all. And I have concerns for another reason too. I told you guys that I'd gone and bought a load of lip balms/salves and vaseline products on our last visit, because of Mil's lips being so cracked and dry. I'd also noticed her tongue was 'white' . Now I know that from my care worker days as 'cotton mouth', and have always been told that its linked to both dehydration and likely to be caused by medication. As well as the cracked lips being really sore, the 'white tongue' makes food and drink taste unpleasant. I spoke to Nurse D about it and he confirmed that its yet another recently developed side effect of the medication, in his opinion, and that its a vicious circle. Her lips are sore, making it uncomfortable for her to eat and drink, plus the white tongue makes food taste horrible - so even if hungry she refuses, which makes dehydration more likely and both the condition and her agitation worse. I'd been in to see Mil, briefly, before going to see Nurse D, and again Mils lips were in a mess. I'd also been told that she had again been refusing all food and drink for several hours. I'd searched for and been unable to find any of the balms I'd bought, so had asked, and found that they were being kept on the medication trolly, and being applied each time the nurses did their rounds - so about 4 times a day. Its not enough. I asked for the salves etc, but poor Mils lips were too sore for her to even 'pucker up' for her 'lippy' - though, bless her, she tried - and so I'd instead smeared a lot of vaseline around her mouth. I asked Nurse D to please make sure that the balm was applied far more often. (When I go in today, I'm also taking another small vaseline lip care pot, and I intend to put it on top of her wardrobe in her room, where Mil can't get it- but where we can so we can apply it when we visit!)

I was a bit narked to be honest, about this - if Mil is refusing food and drink because she has just reached that stage, then its one thing. But if she is actually thirsty and hungry, and is refusing because the 'cotton mouth' is making it painful, or because things are tasting bad, its a different matter. Making it less painful by using lip balms will encourage her drink - and the more she drinks, the less the awful taste, so she will also be more likely to eat if she is hungry. Which will relieve one of the possible sources of discomfort for her. Its simple - isn't it? After I raised these concerns, I was told that Mil will now be put on a fluid chart - basically, rather than just monitoring what she is drinking, they will be making a concerted effort to get a set amount into her, and they will be using the balms more often. I just think that it shouldn't have taken me pointing out what is so obvious to get this sorted.

Going back to Mil, the improvement was already really noticiable on her lips, so a passing staff at our request, brought her a drink of fanta - she always loved her fizzy pop. Mil drank nearly two full glasses. From being semi-asleep, she perked up, we got smiles and even some laughs. Her speech became clearer, and she told staff that oldest was her 'niece'. They brought a bowl of soup, and she ate the lot, back to the little bird impersonation, with her mouth opening for more as soon as she had swallowed the previous mouthful. Oldest asked would she like a trifle - and Mil beamed at her, then very deliberately gave a cheeky wink. The trifle vanished extremely quickly too.

It was actually a lovely visit, and we stayed for nearly 2 hours. We had a couple of the sudden rigid spasms and gutteral cries, but mostly she was fairly alert, calm, and even tried to sing along to Moon River and Paddy McGinties Goat. Oldest showed her some photographs and Mil, when she saw a pic of Busta, our oldest mutt, said very clearly 'My favourite dog'. Having said that, physically, again she looked even more frail and her breathing wasn't good. And we several times had to stop her wriggling down in the chair to try and get herself off it.

I am so grateful that it was such a lovely visit, for oldests sake. If she doesn't get to see Mil again, it will at least be a good last memory for her. After oldest went home, she sent me a text that had me nearly in tears. She thanked me for looking after and doing what I can for her Nana, said she felt it must be hard for me after Nana gave me such a hard time when she lived with us, and that she 'really, really appreciated' it.

I'm going to visit Mil again this morning, taking her her own supply of her favourite pop to be kept in her room, so its to hand. Its still limboland, so just taking each day as it comes.

Thank you again, all you lovely peeps. Will keep you updated and much love to all as always xxxxx
I'm just wondering if your mother in law could have oral thrush. Very common in people in a debilitated state or perhaps have been taking anti biotics. The symtoms are much as you describe - ie white tongue and sore mouth or lips.Usually easily treated with oral thrush liquid medication - maybe ask the GP? Best wishes.
 

Ann Mac

Registered User
Oct 17, 2013
3,693
0
Hi everyone - just a quick update - and yet another thank you to you all x

Mil in lounge, staff to and from her every couple of minutes as she was doing the usual writhing and wriggling and coming off the edge of her seat. She had 'objected (loudly) to going into the recliner, and had been very aggressive :( Refusing food and drink. The agreement is that she desperately needs 1-1 care. But, there will still need to be an urgent case review before the home can put it in place, because of H&S and insurance and everything else - ever felt like screaming? The 'urgent review' was requested nearly 2 weeks ago, and she has deteriorated since then, and still no date from the Health Board as to when its going to happen. The senior Nurse/assistant manager very kindly gave me the direct contact phone number of the person I needed to speak to, and since coming home from the visit I've rang them. I pulled no punches., starting off by stating that Mil was in this situation due to complications caused by consultants over-prescribing medication. That she was now at risk from falls, and that she needed 1-1 urgently. That she is a vulnerable adult, that they have a duty of care - particularly as her agitation has been caused by the actions of 'consultants at the hospital'. I emphasized that point several times.

The 'urgent case review' is now taking place on Thursday at 2.30pm. I'll be there at 1.30, just in case they try to mess about.

Back to the visit, Mil greeted me with a huge smile. I'd walked up to her with a pot of jelly, chocolate milk, vaseline and chocolate buttons. No issues with the vaseline going on - again her lips were quite sore looking though nowhere near as bad as yesterday. About 10 minutes later, and the jelly and half the chocolate milk were more or less inhaled, no messing. She wanted more jelly - staff brought a trifle, and that was deemed acceptable, and it went the same way as the jelly had - stright down, lots of mumbled 'nice' and 'more'. The chocolate buttons were also very much enjoyed. She even took the bag off me and started to feed herself! She was chatty, lots of sentences that were mostly understandable, and often funny. She was wearing a skirt and it kept riding up - I joked with her about 'flashing her pins' - she told me, very clearly, that she was 'after a man'! But, throughout, she wriggled and squirmed and was seemingly trying to push herself off the chair - I lost count of how many times she had to be re-positioned. She cant seem to help it, poor thing, and its really awful to watch. Quite a bit of the suddenly going rigid and low cries too. She sounds as though she is getting some sort of painful spasms. The staff are looking into morphine to replace the patch that she now has. I also raised about the tongue and lips, Havemercy, and one of the nurses mentioned oral thrush - they are asking the GP for some sort of mouthwash, to combat it.

I stayed for about an hour and a half, and left covered in chocolate, as she got very affectionate and kept plastering me in kisses. Again, she told me she loved me - and she also looked me in the face and said 'You're mine'. I have no idea where that came from, but it did make me feel good - even if she thinks I am this flipping 'Pat Valantine' that she goes on about, it doesn't matter - she knew that I was someone who belonged to her, and I'm happy to settle for that. She didn't want me to leave, which was upsetting, but I had to get home to make this phone call before the person I needed to speak to left the office - I had been told he tends to organise meetings for after 2pm, and its hard to get hold of him then.

Again, she looks just a little further down than yesterday, despite her seeming quite alert and happy to see me. Her skin is almost grey and her breathing awful, with a lot more coughing.

Just need to keep fingers crossed now for this meeting on Thursday - I've been warned that they will try to press for alternatives to agreeing to her needing 1-1, to save money. I'm going in there ready for a battle.
 

Spamar

Registered User
Oct 5, 2013
7,723
0
Suffolk
Would like to ba a fly on the wall for that meeting, Ann.
Joking aside, it’s an awful situation when something labelled as urgent isn’t dealt with as an emergency, H&S notwithstanding.
Have a good rest of the day!
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
Just a thought.... another

Could it possibly be that mils “lady bits” have thrush?? and this is possibly causing her wriggling and stabs of pain?

With the mention of oral thrush.... brought back the memory of mums untreated lady bits thrush and the pain/agitation it caused her
 

RedLou

Registered User
Jul 30, 2014
1,161
0
Well done, Ann. You go, girl. {{hugs}} --So nice she's recognising family and able to articulate her love. x
 

Slugsta

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
2,758
0
South coast of England
Morning all,

Ann, I am glad that you had another, relatively, good visit and that MIL was enjoying her food again :) Also glad that she recognised you as someone she loves, that must be especially good after all the hateful comments and behaviour you were subject to previously (((hugs)))

Well done for poking the right person and getting the meeting organised!

Along with the other things suggested, have a look at this - https://www.mind.org.uk/information...h-problems/tardive-dyskinesia-td#.WxZJhUxFyM8

Hope everyone has a good day.
 

Amy in the US

Registered User
Feb 28, 2015
4,616
0
USA
Ann, wanted to stop in and say hello and I hope all is as well as possible.

Others beat me to the suggestions of oral and/or vaginal thrush/yeast infections. There is an oral rinse available but there are also systemic medications. Here in the States you can get a one dose pill that usually knocks those out. I don't know if that would be indicated for MIL (or available or appropriate).

Sending many squishy ((((((hugs))))) as always.
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
Proud mum and her newly married son

for official photos I had clear lenses
A328C716-712E-4AEF-91EF-24290D8696F1.jpeg
 

Izzy

Volunteer Moderator
Aug 31, 2003
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0
72
Dundee
@Izzy Thank you :)

It’s vintage. Seen a few weddings but this time I fluffed it up a bit with feathers.... which got loose and floated around and stuck in the most obscure places for most of the day :D

Aw that's nice. Actually you look lovely - not just the hat!! Oh yes - son too!!