We are going to be paying top up fees for my mum and claiming back from the estate later. We were thinking of getting some legal advice to make sure we are able to recoup the money so that it doesn't get swallowed up in carehome fees. Can anyone recommend somewhere we can get this kind of advice please.
Top up fees
- Thread starter Beverly L
- Start date
How will that work? technically its not allowed- top ups have to be paid by 3rd party, not the person themseves.
What will be left to 'pay you back'?
If she is self funding, she pays it all ( no top up required)
If she is SS funded its because she doesnt have the money to self fund
where would the money come from to pay you back if she doesnt have it now?
What will be left to 'pay you back'?
If she is self funding, she pays it all ( no top up required)
If she is SS funded its because she doesnt have the money to self fund
where would the money come from to pay you back if she doesnt have it now?
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Mum's care is local authority funded with a top up from us, we wanted advice on protecting this top up so that after Mum dies we are able to claim it back from her estate. At the moment my step dad is still alive and living in their home. I hope that makes sense.
I would suggest you get financial advice on this as the whole area is a minefield. I pay top-up on my husband and I had to prove I could sustain it for 2 years and show that the money had never been joint money. It would be awful for you if you were left in debt because it couldn't be recouped.
Problems that immediately spring to mind.....
dad is in the house now. What happensif he need care?
If mum predeceases him,and her will says everything goes to him, wouldnt it be his decision to pay you back?
Do they own the home jointly?
is there reason why he wont pay it now?
dad is in the house now. What happensif he need care?
If mum predeceases him,and her will says everything goes to him, wouldnt it be his decision to pay you back?
Do they own the home jointly?
is there reason why he wont pay it now?
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As your mother is LA funded, the most she is likely to leave in her estate is £14,000. (Should her assets fall to this level, then the LA stop taking contributions from her, the Top-ups would continue.)
In order to have these family Top-ups repaid, there would have to be sufficient funds in the estate, after the funeral costs.
As first party Top-ups are not allowed, if the person does not have enough assets to fully pay for their Care, then they do not have any money for Top-ups.
Top-ups have to come from a third party, family or friends, who are prepared to meet this cost for as long as needed, and the increasing cost.
I do not see how this Top-up cost could be recovered from her estate.
At this point she does not have the capacity to agree a debt, that could be paid from the estate.
The LA could start a claim for Deprivation of Assets, where they would claim back the fees they have paid on her behalf.
Step Dad could agree to refund this top-up cost from the sale of the house, when he passes, subject to him not requring to sell the house to fund his Care. (and him out living mother!)
This does depend on the ownership of the house.
Bod
In order to have these family Top-ups repaid, there would have to be sufficient funds in the estate, after the funeral costs.
As first party Top-ups are not allowed, if the person does not have enough assets to fully pay for their Care, then they do not have any money for Top-ups.
Top-ups have to come from a third party, family or friends, who are prepared to meet this cost for as long as needed, and the increasing cost.
I do not see how this Top-up cost could be recovered from her estate.
At this point she does not have the capacity to agree a debt, that could be paid from the estate.
The LA could start a claim for Deprivation of Assets, where they would claim back the fees they have paid on her behalf.
Step Dad could agree to refund this top-up cost from the sale of the house, when he passes, subject to him not requring to sell the house to fund his Care. (and him out living mother!)
This does depend on the ownership of the house.
Bod
Hi Bod,
Thank you for your reply, that is very helpful.
The top up that we will be paying will be recovered from the sale of the property, whenever that may be. My sister who manages Mum's finances felt we should have some kind of legal help on how to do this.
Thank you for your reply, that is very helpful.
The top up that we will be paying will be recovered from the sale of the property, whenever that may be. My sister who manages Mum's finances felt we should have some kind of legal help on how to do this.
No idea if this is even possible but I've been researching deeds of variation recently so they might be worth looking into, perhaps with the solicitor who has the will.
Can you formalise an agreement now with all the potential beneficiaries in the will so as to adjust any inherited amounts (when the time comes) for amounts that have been personally expensed towards top ups (if it's not equal) with a deed of variation during probate/administration.
Do you also need to consider the scenario of your step dad predeceasing your mum so she'd then be self funding via her share of the house (assuming she owns 50% as tenants in common). If there wasn't enough left in the estate to repay the top ups could you also agree to even out any payments between the beneficiaries separately.
Can you formalise an agreement now with all the potential beneficiaries in the will so as to adjust any inherited amounts (when the time comes) for amounts that have been personally expensed towards top ups (if it's not equal) with a deed of variation during probate/administration.
Do you also need to consider the scenario of your step dad predeceasing your mum so she'd then be self funding via her share of the house (assuming she owns 50% as tenants in common). If there wasn't enough left in the estate to repay the top ups could you also agree to even out any payments between the beneficiaries separately.
Did you choose the care home or was it chosen by the LA? If it was the LA was it the only one offered or did they give a choice of others to choose from?
Reason I ask is because if it was the only home available on the LA list which could meet your mums needs then you shouldn't be paying top up fees at all. Just a thought.
Reason I ask is because if it was the only home available on the LA list which could meet your mums needs then you shouldn't be paying top up fees at all. Just a thought.
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Definitely get some legal advice on this as the concern is that you could end up unable to recoup your losses. No property is safe for it to become estate until that person and their spouse / partner have both passed away ( trusts etc are the exceptions but can also be problematic) As has been stated , if your step dad needs residential care then the property would have to be sold to meet this . If your mum is still alive should this happen then she may well become self funding. If she has passed away , his care needs will superceed any payment you may be owed. As also mentioned this will depend on how the house is owned. So it’s incredibly complex with many pitfalls, please be careful.
You are trying to recoup an unknown expense on the death, depending on wills and future events, of either mum or dad.
I suggest you contact a member of STEP (society of trustees and estates practitioners) , scroll down to search directory.
Full STEP members, known as TEPs, are internationally recognised as experts in their field, with proven qualifications and experience.
https://www.step.org/about-step .
I suggest you contact a member of STEP (society of trustees and estates practitioners) , scroll down to search directory.
STEP is a global professional body, with more than 21,000 members comprising lawyers, accountants, trustees and other practitioners that help families plan for their futures.
Our mission is to inspire confidence in families planning their assets across generations by setting and upholding high professional standards, informing public policy, promoting education, and connecting practitioners globally to share knowledge and best practice.Full STEP members, known as TEPs, are internationally recognised as experts in their field, with proven qualifications and experience.
https://www.step.org/about-step .
Hi Dave,
We are planning to move Mum from her present carehome to another one that is nearer to us the local authority will be part paying and we are going to be topping up as it is more expensive.
What is, in effect ,Mum topping up. ( because in effect it is mum topping up when all comes to all she willbe the one that has spnt the money)
Whilst you have no idea how long you will be paying it ( and it will increase) I dont see as anyone can predict how much, if any, will be leftin her pot when step dad passes away
I think you could very easily end up out of pocket
Nitrams suggestion is a very good one
Ah, understood. In that case top ups are going to be a thing I'm afraid.
Without going off on one of my 'I hate top up' rants
the amount third parties are going to be expected to pay is only going to increase over time. As home fees increase at a greater rate than the funding from LA's, relatives are going to be filling the ever increasing gap between them both. The system needs a complete review because the next generation are not going to have the assets available to pay for their own care due to spending it all on elderly relatives.Dave carefully climbs down from soap box
Hope you find a solution. @nitram and @Jessbow have given good advice.
Thank you all, your advice is very much appreciated, it has been causing some concerns for us all. I will definitely look for further advice before making a final decision. Isn't it terrible how much care costs and how it changes in different counties.
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