power of attorney - problems

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by nemesisis, May 11, 2007.

  1. I have an Enduring Power of Attorney for my brother. I had no problem and the EPA is not registered and I will not register it as I don't feel the need. If the bank need a copy, please don't send the original. Get the solicitors to make 6 copies and stamp and sign them to say it is a true copy. If you register the power you have to run it like a small business, adding more pressure to what is already a difficult situation. Tread carefully as the Court of Protection, CSCI, NHS, Social Services etc. etc. are not as good as they are made out to be.

    Has anyone signed the petition http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Continuing-Care/

    Kind Regards,

    Stephen (Johnson).
     
  2. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    Is it not the case that some banks will only deal with you if the EPA is registered?
     
  3. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    I certainly used the EPA for Jan for some years very successfully before I needed to register it.

    As I recall, I registered it because of her condition becoming worse, and my wishing to the the correct thing - not because anyone refused to act on the unregistered document.

    I guess things may vary, both in organisation, person in organisation, and in the particular time things are done, or attempted.
     
  4. If you register the power you have to run it like a small business, adding more pressure to what is already a difficult situation.

    Good Morning Stephen.

    I am having to go this route due to one company.

    On a lighter side; running my wife like a business; Should I register her for Value Added Tax; and is she deductable...Micky.
     
  5. Michael E

    Michael E Registered User

    Apr 14, 2005
    619
    Male
    Ronda Spain
    My POA is registered but I feel no necessity and I am sure there is no requirement, to keep detailed records of any - all minor transactions...

    There appear to be only two reasons for the Court of Protection to worry about how you are spending the money... If somebody complains to them that you are misappropriating the dosh or if you make a really major financial transaction - selling the house or similar without running it by them first....

    In a worst case scenario, that somebody complained to the court that you were misapproating the dosh, then they would have to prove it- the Court knows that people have 'running costs' food, shelter, clothes, heat,light, council tax and will accept that in general terms you are spending the money appropriately.. They would be interested and want an account of big lumps of money disappearing... IMO
     
  6. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,437
    I think that's true - definitely the disability rights comission will NOT procede in cases where the EPA hasn't been registered ( they had one case listed where they started procedings and then dropped them when they discovered the EPA wasn't registered). Also the wording of the EPA is relevant: my mother's indicates that it comes in to effect ONLY when she loses capacity.

    Something else to be considered: an EPA can be cancelled at any time before it's been registered. Although this wouldn't be an issue for most people, it's not hard to envision a situation where someone unscrupulous persuaded the donor to revoke one EPA and make another in their favour. Finally, although I don't know that it's an absolute line, but if you register the EPA you are putting on record that the donor has lost capacity, which would make it very hard for a company, for example, to claim that the donor had signed a valid contract after the power had been registered.

    In the final analysis you have to do what you are comfortable with: personally I take seriously the words that I have a "duty to apply to the Court for the registration of this form under the Enduring Powers of Attorney Act 1985 when the donor is or is becoming mentally incapable"

    Jennifer
     
  7. nemesisis

    nemesisis Registered User

    May 25, 2006
    100
    back log

    I have phoned the building society again and they have told me that although they sent all the info to head office over a month ago due to bank holidays etc. they have a back log and it can take 6-8 weeks to come through (although the bank application only took 2 weeks) so fingers crossed
     
  8. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    What rubbish .......bank holiday causing 6 to 8 week backlog

    You need to write a complaint letter fast
     
  9. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,854
    Wigan, Lancs
    Banks and registering EPA

    The Bank should not be able to insist on an EPA being registered. An EPA is often used for the elderly or those who may be losing their mental capacity, but ANYONE over the age of 18 who has mental capacity can execute an EPA.

    My sister is 43 and when she decided to move to Athens and become a teacher she needed to sign a POA to allow me and my other sister to deal with her property in London, bank accounts and so on because she was not physically present to sign. We could have done a 'normal' POA but decided (mainly because the document is a lot simpler and because there can be difficulties with a normal POA that is more than 12 months old) to do an EPA. The only difference between the 2 is that a normal POA is automatically revoked if the donor loses mental capacity, whereas an EPA 'endures'.

    I would like to see my sister's reaction if we tried to register the EPA because the bank would not accept is if not registered! :eek: (Although the fact that she is considering spending £700 on a ticket for the Champions League Final did make me wonder if she was really to be trusted with her own money :D )

    Sue
     
  10. the fact that she is considering spending £700 on a ticket for the Champions League Final did make me wonder if she was really to be trusted with her own money

    Hi Sue.

    If your sister gets me a ticket; I will swear before God; that she is sane...:) :) :)


    I have just started a war with a super market chain; and challenged their chief Executive to a public debate about their customer service; I expected a long battle; and I am prepared for a long battle; but after just 4 letters; I am already getting top people looking at my wife’s case.

    If we do meet them face to face; then that saves me getting the EPA, if not, I will see it through; and hopefully face them in court; I am tired of the Corporate Spin ****.

    I think we are all to civilized; bully’s only understand the same stuff they like to dish-out……..Micky.
     
  11. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Hi

    Mum and Dad has shares in a well know company which has recently been taken over by a Spanish company.
    There was an option to sell the shares. I completed the form and sent it of with a solicitors certified copy of EPA and certified copy of my passport (which I have learned is needed for everything) only to have it returned, because every page of the EPA wasn't stamped and signed.

    I think this is OTT
    Alfjess
     
  12. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    The solicitor should have realised that was necessary when certifying the EPA.

    It is the problem with using copies - and we none of us want to let the original out of our sight!

    You might return to the person who certified it ans ask them to do the job fully?
     
  13. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,854
    Wigan, Lancs
    Hi Alfjess,

    Unfortunately, this is the law and is peculiar to POA's. They do have to be certified on every page and signed by the solicitor personally (not in the firm name). The reason I assume is that as the donor only signs on one page, the other pages could be easily replaced.

    The solicitors should have known this - although I have to say not all do. :( I would go back to the solicitors and ask them to certify it properly. The relevant legislation is section 3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971.

    Sue
     
  14. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    The solicitor is totally at fault here

    Its standard practice for Solicitors to certify copies of EPAs for anyone who walks in the door and they are entitled to charge £5 for each one

    They know that every page MUST be stamped and signed
    Mind you most banks and building societies will actually take their own copies of the original EPA or grant of probate .......they will then certify them and forward them to their head office

    Thats certainly been my experience when dealing with several of them over my Mothers EPA and her probate
     
  15. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,854
    Wigan, Lancs
    Actually there is no set fee for this. (£5 is the set fee for administering an oath). I would ask the Solicitor what they charge before you ask them to do this as you may get a wide variety of charges. Usually when we do an EPA we provide certified copies as part of the service.

    Sue
     
  16. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Hi

    Thanks all for your replies. I have already contacted the solicitor and they have now certified every page of all the copies.

    Unfortunately, the date for selling the shares at the take over, has passed, but all is not lost. I can still sell the shares, but I think under slightly different terms.

    The every page certified copy has been sent off and I've checked with Lloyds TSB Registrar that it is now acceptable. I am awaiting the next step. Cheque or not?

    Thanks again
    Alfjess
     
  17. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Hi

    PS to last post

    I am still trying to fix out the afore mentioned department of the bank.

    I tried Brenda's suggestions and received a letter this morning, saying that it has been passed to their Technical Department!

    Mum and Dad's financies are in a mess, it is hard enough trying to sort it all and to even know where to look for documentation without banks etc making it harder

    Sorry to be such a whinger

    Alfjess
     
  18. Nell

    Nell Registered User

    Aug 9, 2005
    1,170
    Australia
    Sorry, Alfjess, no help for you, but . . . .
    do you have JPs (Justices of the Peace) in the UK? Here in Aust. these people certify documents for free - saves a trip to the solicitor too.

    JPs are found in all walks of life - esp. banks, etc. Our local JP association has two reps. on duty at the local Library every Thursday to sign papers for anyone who needs them done. As far as I know, they aren't paid for this. It certainly is a very useful and valuable community service.
     
  19. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    Then I would find out the name of the Chief Executive and send a letter to him (and it usually is a him!) marked Private and Confidential. Send it by Special Delivery. He wil never look at it but it should get taken more seriously. Alternatively ask for a copy of their complaints procedure.

    If you write to the Chief Executive then I very much doubt that he will ever read it but you should at least get taken seriously and your complaint looked into.
     
  20. #60 mickyinlondon, May 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2007
    Good Morning Everyone.

    Well I have started to challenge the chief executive of a large supermarket chain to a public debate on his companies customer service; or lack of it.

    I get all the computer generated replies etc; I post the type of thing for you to get an idea of how they hide from questions they don't like; but run pages and pages on the WWW of the things they do like.

    I withold the challenge mail; as it may be deleted; and that is right.

    But I think the type of replies you get from these companies and organizations are fair game on any forum; but again I leave that decision up to the moderators.

    My point is this; you can be a pain in their backsides if you return the treatment they dish out; if nothing else; you fill up their customer services mail box..:) :)

    My replies below; every-time, sometimes altered to add other comments; which is many times a day.:) :) :)

    I just want to thank you for your computer generated; thank you mail.

    I have lots of them..

    And I want you to know you are important to my wife and me, as well.

    I also want to let you know that your email has successfully reached us.

    And we still want our money back; or we will not go away.

    I want to let you know that you are important to us and we will back in touch as quickly as we can; after all, we are just returning your compliment.

    I will post again as quickly as I can; but I also have a high volume of other things to do; including inquiries.

    Thank you; Micky and Rita.

    Next part has been edited out by Bruce. The reply from the supermarket specifically said the reply is confidential and as such, it should not be put on a public forum


    I will do this; till my case is cleared and my wifes money returned to her.

    I tend to fight my own corner; and fight to the end...Micky
     

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