power of attorney - problems

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by nemesisis, May 11, 2007.

  1. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    #21 noelphobic, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
    To be fair Mickey, it is not unknown for next of kin to NOT look after the 'patient's' interests and if banks didin't have to follow procedures then they would be seen as colluding in dishonesty. My brother would certainly not handle my mum's finances responsibly were he given access to them. :eek:

    It goes without saying that I do not for one moment believe that anyone here is attempting to act in anything other than the best interests of their loved one.
     
  2. Good Morning Alfie.

    I find it interesting that today like you; I am often asked for my passport to prove who I am by these thick-headed officials; my normal reply is; I do not have a passport; as I don't need one; I was born here therefore didn't need one to get into this country.

    I personally would point out to these thick-heads; that if they look at your documents; they would see for themselves that the law recognised you when they issued you with your registered EPA.

    At times I have shown my driving licence to these same thick-heads as proof of ID; and being an old green one with no mug-shot on it; I have been told that without a picture your licence could be anyone’s licence; I always reply; if it is anyone else’s; why haven't they got it; as to my picture not being on it; it is not necessary as you and everyone else can see my face in real life just by looking at it.

    It is much the same when they ask my nationality; I say English; British they repeat; no English I insist; I was born in England, well we don’t have English on our form only white British; but you have Welsh, Scotch, Albanian, and all other countries; so go and correct your forms and add English to the list; I always reply to this kind of ignorance.

    They never do; of course; so we end up by me declaring, if you insist on correctness; then I am white African; because all anthropologists now say that the entire human race started in Africa; therefore I am originally African; and a white one.

    I remember many years ago; the Government promised to get rid of the gob-ody-goo and nonsensical forms that people face every day; especially government forms; nothing changed, and they got worse…:) :) :) :) :) Micky.
     
  3. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    Mickey these 'thick heads' as you so charmingly term them, are generally only people like you and me who are trying to earn a living! There are increasing incidences of identity theft and credit card fraud and I for one feel that having to occasionally show proof of identity is a small price to pay for protecting myself.
     
  4. #24 mickyinlondon, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
    Good Morning Brenda.

    I like your quote; To be fair Mickey, it is not unknown for next of kin to NOT look after the 'patient's' interests and if banks didin't have to follow procedures then they would be seen as colluding in dishonesty. My brother would certainly not handle my mum's finances responsibly were he given access to them.


    Good Morning Brenda.

    Whilst I agree some family members could and some-times do; abuse their family members and families trust.

    But to be honest; I have lost count of the times I have read in the media about corrupt bankers and accountants; corrupt businessmen and corrupt companies of all kinds.

    Just look at Pension Funds alone.

    In my honest opinion; the family wins morally; nine times out of ten; you cannot say that about businessmen and their toddy employees………Micky.
     
  5. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    #25 noelphobic, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
    I take your point Mickey but don't know the statistics for either family or 'professionals' behaving inappropriately. Indeed such statistics would not be available because a lot of those crimes, which is what they are, probably go undetected.

    What I would say is that, if you are dealing with something as simple as a bank current or savings account, weekly benefits payments etc, then it is very likely that you will be dealing with a large organisation. The individuals within these organisations know the consequences of misappopriating a client's funds, and unless they are very stupid or short sighted they would not want to take that kind of risk. Also, as with demanding ID from clients and their representatives, there are checks and balances in place to ensure as far as possible that employees are behaving appropriately. Should an employee somehow manage to acquire a client's funds then the organisation they work for would normally be liable to compensate said client. If a family member or other associate takes the person's funds then there is no guarantee that they will ever be returned.

    As I have said, I don't believe anyone here has anything inappropriate in mind but banks and other financial institutions cannot by law take that as read. They are compelled to follow procedure. When things go wrong because something is not followed correctly in their procedures then that is very frustrating for the innocent client and should be put right as soon as possible.
     
  6. #26 mickyinlondon, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
    You said; Mickey these 'thick heads' as you so charmingly term them, are generally only people like you and me who are trying to earn a living! There are increasing incidences of identity theft and credit card fraud and I for one feel that having to occasionally show proof of identity is a small price to pay for protecting myself.
    __________________

    We will have to stop meeting like this Brenda; the other members will think something is going on..:) :) :)

    I have many times walked out of jobs because I do not like what they wanted me to do; I could not bow down to any Boss; no-matter what the wages were; for this reason I spent most of my life being self employed; and poor..:) :) :)

    I do agree with you about identity theft, and Fraud etc.

    So why does all governments leave all the National Insurace numbers and cards in circulation; I believe that there are twice as many National insurance numbers than actual people in the UK.

    If busineses were really that bothered about Fraud; why do they persist in throwing credit cards at all and sundry without even checking who they throw them at; just look at the adverts on TV for an example of their stupidity and bad business judgement.

    Now I will tell you another true story; I was pestered by a credit card company to have one of their cards; this was getting to be a monthly thing; un-sollicitated mail to me; so I filled in the form they sent; Name-Robbie Burns, occupation-I filled in fraudster, my address- Alcatraz, how long I have lived at my present address; 40 year sentence I filled in,

    Form completed; they sent me a card; that I cut up and binned; even today over twenty years later; they send me nice credit offers; and they still send it addressed to Robbie Burns; but not Alcatraz; they use the original address that the first form arrived at.

    Ok; if they may not be thick-heads to you; but they are no Einstein’s to me. Micky.
     
  7. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    would say most people who work for large organisations fall between the two stools (ouch) :eek:
     
  8. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,437
    Ok I'll jump in here. I have had tremendous problems one way or the other with my Mother's bank, including lost signature cards, lost forms and problems with online banking software. In the case of the lost form, they were accepting my signature on cheques when they shouldn't have been, and I only found out there was an issue when they refused to accept a direct debit instruction with my signature. However, through all this, with the exception of the overseas call centre, every individual I have spoken to has been as frustrated as I have been with the procedures that they have to manage, in many cases, more frustrated because they have to do this stuff EVERY DAY. They may not have been able to help me in every situation, but they certainly tried. I felt particularly sorry for one young man at the internet support desk who attempted to get through to his own companies tech support desk but whose call was refused because tech support "only accept calls from customers". :eek:

    So, I can't say I'm happy with the bank, and there is no way I would recommend them to someone else, but I have a great deal of sympathy for the workers in the trenches. I think you have to distinguish between people doing their jobs to the best of their ability and institutional procedures that seem designed to get in their way when you're throwing mud around.

    Jennifer
     
  9. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    Well said Jennifer! People who work for large organisations, not just banks, are often just as frustrated with 'the system' as their customers, especially when things go wrong.
     
  10. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    Just to return to the original reason for the thread

    Just to clarify the situation for England, as far as I have experienced EPAs.

    The person assigned as Attorney [or one of them is there is more than one] will have the original of the completed and signed - unregistered - EPA.

    I found that was often sufficient - at the time - to do many things with Jan's existing accounts, using the unregistered EPA.

    The person assigned as Attorney [or one of them is there is more than one] will have the original of the completed and signed - registered - EPA. [I recommend that there are authorised copies made so the original can be kep extra safe]

    A financial institution should clearly take note of a registered EPA as it has legal meaning.

    Identification

    Recently things have tightened up a lot regarding providing identity proof.

    I'm actually glad of that.

    Prior to my holiday, someone had cloned my credit card and while I was 4,000 miles away, had tried to use it to withdraw cash. The company spotted it and reimbursed my account.

    Anything that can help stick a clog in the works of these people is worth while.

    I'm always happy to show passport, driving licence etc, after all I'm one of those in the UK who is here legally, so I can do that.

    I have no problem with proving who I am - I just wish it was more general that others had to do the same - we might lose a few :) .
     
  11. #31 mickyinlondon, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
    would say most people who work for large organisations fall between the two stools (ouch)
    __________________
    Brenda


    Hi Brenda; I'm doing housework at the moment; but I stop for tea every 2 minutes.:) :)

    Yes two stools sounds about right; I call them toadstools....:) :) :) :) Micky.
     
  12. #32 mickyinlondon, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
    Talking of Practices and Procedures.

    The reason large companies can get away with their restrictive practices and straight jacket procedures are because; they for the most part use your money to subsidise their bad business practices with their even more hostile restricting procedures; whilst the small businesses have to use good practices; or they will go broke.

    The larger the company; the less reason they have to care or worry about what you punters want; and they have your money to hold you to ransom.

    I am a cash person; it’s all under the floor-boards..

    Once I was in the John Lewis Store in Oxford Street; and the queue was long at the till; loads of people all using credit cards; buying what they thought they wanted; and without thinking in cash terms; after all; its easy to spend money you don’t have; on a credit card.

    When I got to the front of the queue; about two months later; with all those lovely ladies fiddling around in their handbags; trying to decide which credit card to use, which was overdrawn and which wasn’t, then taking another two days to put in their pin numbers; the cashier asked me how I wanted to pay; ‘’I politely replied’’ do you take cash as I do not have a credit card, ‘’she replied’’ cash is fine sir; but how do you manage without a credit, ‘’she asked’’ really wanting to know how; like I have done all my life lady; with grubby cash ‘’I replied’’ I normally joke a lot with people; and I told her, you may not believe this; but it’s true; when England had the biggest Empire the World ever knew; not one British citizen had a credit card.

    I left her dwelling on that fact……..Micky
     
  13. Norman

    Norman Registered User

    Oct 9, 2003
    4,348
    Birmingham Hades
    Hi Nemisis
    have you spoken to the Alzheimer's help Line?
    Norman
     
  14. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Hi
    I agree with providing proof that I am who I say I am and so preventing fraud, but how many times do I have to do it, with the same bank?
    If other departments accepts a certified copy of my passport and registered EPA, logged on the system, why can't this other department? Surely the same rules apply throughtout the same institution?
    The reason I am encashing these investments is I want to put the money elsewhere, to receive an income to help pay the care home fees of £1005 per week.
    I just find it so frustrating and time consuming, especially when I have to go through a call centre, everytime. I have also tried writing but have had no reply.

    Thanks for your interest
    Alfjess
     
  15. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    Have you asked to speak to a manager when you phone the call centre? If they say the manager is not currently available tell them that you want them to arrange for one to phone you back. Get the name of the person you spoke to and the name of the manager who will be calling you. You may find that the call centre operative is reluctant to give you their own surname and you can't force them to. If that is the case then try to get the full name of the manager who will be calling you back. Also if the company you are dealing with has call centres in more than one location then find out what location the person you are talking to is in. Tell them that if you don't speak to a manager you will be contacting the chief executive (find out their name first and quote it) and that you will also contact the press, get legal advice etc. Try to sound confident and authoritative but without being rude to the person you are speaking to. If you try to shoot the messenger you need to be careful you don't go too far, tempting as it may be!

    If this all fails then DO contact the chief executive! If you send any letters then send them by recorded delivery - Special Delivery might be better although it is more expensive.

    I hope this is of some help.

    Take care
     
  16. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    Thanks Brenda

    This is a fine example of how TP can really help people, by suggesting practical ways to approach difficult things.
     
  17. Nell

    Nell Registered User

    Aug 9, 2005
    1,170
    Australia
    I'm never sure how much of what applies here also aplies in the UK . . .
    Most (if not all) call centres here will give a receipt no. for your call, if requested. This rec. no. can then be "tracked" through their records system. It might be a good idea to first ask for a receipt no., then follow up with Brenda's excellent suggestions if one is not forthcoming.
     
  18. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    never heard of that here unfortunately Nell. It does sound like a great idea and would avoid the problem of the call centre operative not wanting to give their full name. I think it is a good idea to ask for the name though, even if you only get a first name. Just the fact of being asked tends to mean you will be taken more seriously as the person is then aware that there could be consequences if they don't treat the call correctly!
     
  19. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    Just a reminder

    This may be a good time to remind everyone that we all post on TP from personal experience, and other people's experiences may be different from our own.

    Neither TP nor the Alzheimer's Society endorse any products or services.

    Remember that all services are a combination of individuals and the organisation. In the best of all worlds both work in harmony.

    A flawed organisation may work well in a branch if its individual employees are good.

    A good organisation may be scuppered in a branch if its individual employees are not good.

    A good organisation with good employees can be scuppered if there is a breakdown in communication internally.

    Finally, the customer has responsibility as well.

    Employees of organisations are people, and as such respond better to those who act reasonably.

    There will be occasions when it is necessary to act unreasonably in the view of the employee, if appropriate and sensible action is not offered.:eek: This is where Brenda's suggestion comes into its own.
     
  20. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Hi Brenda

    Good advice thanks, I will try it out to-day

    Alfjess
     

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