Power of Attorney certified copy - needs to be less than 12 months old?

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,707
North West
I dont think anybody is suggesting that Meanmum sends the original away, Stanley - I agree, thats not a good idea - just a certified copy that just happens to be over 12 months old.

I think nmintueo is probably right - Id bet they would accept it too.
I thought that was what nmintueo was saying:

'Still, you could always post them the existing certified copy'
 

Meanmum

Registered User
Apr 14, 2017
19
I think it's absolutely correct & appropriate that financial institutions need to see the full financial PoA - either the original or a certified copy. They tend to make their own copy of this & return to you. I would be concerned if financial activity were permitted without them seeing all this! They may also require proof of identity & address - fair enough.
The point here is the "less than 12 month" rule that Invesco have. Everyone thinks it's stupid & may even be wrong - I generally like a good fight, but I don't have the time or energy just now to argue the toss.
 

oilovlam

Registered User
Aug 2, 2015
388
South East
I think it's absolutely correct & appropriate that financial institutions need to see the full financial PoA - either the original or a certified copy. They tend to make their own copy of this & return to you. I would be concerned if financial activity were permitted without them seeing all this! They may also require proof of identity & address - fair enough.
The point here is the "less than 12 month" rule that Invesco have. Everyone thinks it's stupid & may even be wrong - I generally like a good fight, but I don't have the time or energy just now to argue the toss.
You are right....sometimes you have to pick your fights. Although if I had to go to the hassle & expense of getting a 'new' certified copy then personally I would try to get them to change their mind. But you might quite rightly prefer to save your energy for other fights. It's just a shame that organisations seem to put pointless (& absurd) rules in our path just to make our lives that little bit harder.
 

Rageddy Anne

Registered User
Feb 21, 2013
5,984
Cotswolds
I am dealing with my fathers affairs on his admission to a nursing home. Everyone seems to want to see his PoA - but today Invesco Perpetual asked to see either the original or a certified copy LESS THAN 12 MONTHS OLD. Has anyone come across this before? I thought once you had certified copies they could be used forever......
I am also having exactly the same difficulty with the SAME PEOPLE over POA. Makes you wonder....
 

nmintueo

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
847
UK
I am also having exactly the same difficulty with the SAME PEOPLE over POA. Makes you wonder....
Wow. is this in writing, or have you just got the same confused people over the phone?

Given that:

  1. There is a statutory legal standard for certified PoA copies, and age ain't part of it
  2. Invesco's own forms do not specify a newness requirement for these copies
  3. Invesco does specify a recency requirement for documents used as proof of address,
it really sounds like people there are confused about what the rules are.

Would be fascinated to know how it all turns out in the end.
 

Meanmum

Registered User
Apr 14, 2017
19
I'll also be fascinated to see how Raggedy Anne gets on with this one.......I got the same message from 2 different people, although I guess they are all probably sitting together in the same office.......
If I had more time I'd fight it, I'm not usually a quitter
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
19,715
North Manchester
If Raggedy Anne wants to pursue the matter she could send an email to marty.flanagan@invesco.com . Invesco is large and has many diverse operations in the UK, so go to the top, the CEO in the USA.

Concisely explain the problem and ask for the rationale for a certified copy to be dated less than a year ago.

Quote the following:-

3 Proof of instruments creating powers of attorney.

(1)The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be proved by means of a copy which—

(a)is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other device for reproducing documents in facsimile; and

(b)contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the donor of the power or by a solicitor [F4, authorised person ] or stockbroker, that is to say—

(i)a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and complete copy of the original; and

(ii)if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original.

...


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27

as evidence of the legal requirement in the UK.
 

Rageddy Anne

Registered User
Feb 21, 2013
5,984
Cotswolds
Wow. is this in writing, or have you just got the same confused people over the phone?

Given that:

  1. There is a statutory legal standard for certified PoA copies, and age ain't part of it
  2. Invesco's own forms do not specify a newness requirement for these copies
  3. Invesco does specify a recency requirement for documents used as proof of address,
it really sounds like people there are confused about what the rules are.

Would be fascinated to know how it all turns out in the end.
Both on the phone and by letter. The phone person said it had to be a "wet" signature, by which I think he meant recent.

The first letter returned my passport and driving licence but POA wasn't acceptable, and the subsequent letter I've sent with the improved POA hasn't been acknowledged.
 

Rageddy Anne

Registered User
Feb 21, 2013
5,984
Cotswolds
If Raggedy Anne wants to pursue the matter she could send an email to marty.flanagan@invesco.com . Invesco is large and has many diverse operations in the UK, so go to the top, the CEO in the USA.

Concisely explain the problem and ask for the rationale for a certified copy to be dated less than a year ago.

Quote the following:-

3 Proof of instruments creating powers of attorney.

(1)The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be proved by means of a copy which—

(a)is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other device for reproducing documents in facsimile; and

(b)contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the donor of the power or by a solicitor [F4, authorised person ] or stockbroker, that is to say—

(i)a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and complete copy of the original; and

(ii)if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original.

...


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27

as evidence of the legal requirement in the UK.
That's wonderfully clear nitram, many thanks. A friend well versed in these things is helping me, so we may not need to resort to the man in America. I wonder if it would actually find its way to his desk.

And I would follow your advice to be concise. On here, I am inclined to type and be verbose!:(.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
19,715
North Manchester
" I wonder if it would actually find its way to his desk."

In a big organisation probably not.

However a query from a CEO's PA can cascade down the management chain with considerable momentum.

I've always had success emailing CEOs, I've had a several offers of flowers or cases of wine, no contest I take the wine!

One well known bank gave me three cases of wine because they continually refused to understand the difference between 'interest accrued and credited' and 'interest accrued but not credited' when I was sorting out probate for my wife.
 

Meanmum

Registered User
Apr 14, 2017
19
I have used donor certified copies (5 years old) for other financial institutions......
 

oilovlam

Registered User
Aug 2, 2015
388
South East
......The phone person said it had to be a "wet" signature, by which I think he meant recent.....
I don't think a 'wet' signature denotes that it is a recent signature. It just means (as far as I know) that the signature is in ink and needs time to dry. I suppose it means that it cannot be a photocopy.

A certified copy is a 'wet' signature because the solicitor would sign in ink.

So I suspect that the company in question are either setting rules for POA's that are unreasonable (and plain daft IMO). It could be that the department are misunderstanding their own rules or perhaps those rules were written by someone who doesn't understand what is a legal document, either way they need to look at this. We have two people who have been inconvenienced by this company....there are bound to be others.
 

Rageddy Anne

Registered User
Feb 21, 2013
5,984
Cotswolds
Update...

Because I have been hindered by other difficulties related to the Care Home, and am now being hindered by my own health matters, I still haven't got any further with this.
I can see that care must be taken to prevent fraud, but the prevarications of one organisation has caused a lot of worry for me, which I think is partly responsible for my own health issues....