Power of Attorney certified copy - needs to be less than 12 months old?

Discussion in 'I care for a person with dementia' started by Meanmum, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. Meanmum

    Meanmum Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
    19
    I am dealing with my fathers affairs on his admission to a nursing home. Everyone seems to want to see his PoA - but today Invesco Perpetual asked to see either the original or a certified copy LESS THAN 12 MONTHS OLD. Has anyone come across this before? I thought once you had certified copies they could be used forever......
     
  2. Meanmum

    Meanmum Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
    19
    Thanks, I actually have the original & 2 certified copies. I don't want to let the original out of my hand! I know I can get a solicitor to certify more copies, but it's more hassle & cost that I can do without just now......I feel that it's a very odd position for Invesco to take.....
     
  3. stanleypj

    stanleypj Registered User

    Dec 8, 2011
    10,707
    North West
    It's absurd. What possible reason could they give?
     
  4. irismary

    irismary Registered User

    Feb 7, 2015
    499
    West Midlands
    Agree ridiculous. I tried to close my husbands credit card account today which he hasn't used for over a year - High street shop/bank. Helpline said any shop customer services will view or copy LPA and close the account. I went into a branch with a bank in it (sign says its a bank) but they couldn't do it as they are only a satellite branch of the bank - I need to go to a main branch! She did copy it eventually to see if head office would accept it but could not sign to say she had seen certified copy as she hasn't got the special stamp that has to be signed over. Hoops, hurdles, more hoops, more hurdles.
     
  5. Meanmum

    Meanmum Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
    19
    I rang the OPG & they thought it strange.......but also said any institution can make their own rules, so seems I'm stuck with it.
    Local solicitors charge anything from nothing to £30 to make a copy, so worth ringing around.
     
  6. Soobee

    Soobee Registered User

    Aug 22, 2009
    2,734
    South
    how ridiculous. I would write to their head office and ask them to justify this unnecessary and stupid rule.
     
  7. nmintueo

    nmintueo Registered User

    Jun 28, 2011
    847
    UK
    Like the other posters: I don't think you're stuck with it, and I wouldn't accept it.

    I'm not a lawyer, but OPG is wrong. (And a phone call is probably not the most reliable way to get this sort of information.)

    A certified copy is a legally valid proof of the instrument, so institutions can't just invent rules that refuse to accept it as such.

    See, for example, this thread:
    Council refused certified LPA copy
    https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?98170&p=1364219#post1364219

    The law states, "The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be proved by means of a copy which- ..." and goes on to specify the requirements for a certified copy, none of which are 'must be less than a year old'.

    The company's own forms use this wording: "in the case of an attorney, enclose the power of attorney (or a certified copy)". Nothing about 'less than a year old'.

    Sometimes people mistake a valid certified copy for a mere photocopy (or vice-versa), but this 'less than a year old' nonsense is a new one on me. I agree with the other posters: don't accept this.
     
  8. nmintueo

    nmintueo Registered User

    Jun 28, 2011
    847
    UK
    Was this over the phone? Are you sure that requirement was in relation to the certified copy of the Power of Attorney, and not some other document?

    If they really did say that, I expect they were confusing that requirement with this:

    Frequently asked questions
    https://www.invescoperpetual.co.uk/...AGE/home/resources/frequently-asked-questions

    "Documents used for evidence of address need to be the most recent of their kind, e.g. less than 12 months for annually produced documents, less than 6 months for bi-annual documents and less than 3 months for quarterly or more frequently produced documents."
     
  9. Meanmum

    Meanmum Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
    19
    I spoke to 2 different people at Invesco, & they both gave the same answer (even when I had the cheek to suggest they didn't understand what document I was talking about!) If I was feeling stronger & had time to waste I'd probably argue the legalities with them, but as a local solicitor can do me a copy tomorrow for £10, I'm going with that as the line of least resistance......
    I'm taking my business out of Invesco as quickly as I can though
     
  10. nmintueo

    nmintueo Registered User

    Jun 28, 2011
    847
    UK
    Interesting. For the sake of a mere £10, I agree - why argue?

    Still, you could always post them the existing certified copy without comment. I'd bet they'd just accept it without question.

    I hope the place you take your business to gets things right.
     
  11. stanleypj

    stanleypj Registered User

    Dec 8, 2011
    10,707
    North West
    Sending it away may not be a good idea. I read on TP that someone had done this & whoever they sent it to had shredded it. Then it happened to me!
     
  12. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    11,099
    Female
    South coast
    I dont think anybody is suggesting that Meanmum sends the original away, Stanley - I agree, thats not a good idea - just a certified copy that just happens to be over 12 months old.

    I think nmintueo is probably right - Id bet they would accept it too.
     
  13. SnowWhite

    SnowWhite Registered User

    Nov 18, 2016
    699
    I had to take the originals to show estate agent and I pencilled "original" on the back of them as you could barely tell them from photocopies.
     
  14. Meanmum

    Meanmum Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
    19
    The originals have holes stamped through them.......& my certified copies are black & white.
     
  15. jugglingmum

    jugglingmum Registered User

    Jan 5, 2014
    5,394
    Female
    Chester
    My mum had multiple financial investments (£5000 here and there) and I went in person where I could, and even then some needed 3 bits of ID from me instead of the standard 2.

    However some of the postal ones wouldn't accept the certified LPA as they needed extra lines written on, eg hand written instead of the solicitor's stamp. When I phoned and pointed out what was a validly legal copy, they said well these are our rules. So I went to the solicitor's with my certified copies (I have 5 as so many to deal with) and she went through each letter with me, and wrote what each one needed - each one was different, and they needed different things on my passport as well.

    Her charge was minimal £10 for the original 5 and I think only £5 for the amendments - I did actually try and pay her more as I thought she wasn't charging enough.

    I actually haven't finished my mum's stuff as it was such a nightmare.

    It is very frustrating that due to poor understanding of LPA's financial organisations have put extra hoops in.

    Ultimately an organisation is entitled to create their own rules as to what they require and set the bar higher. Maybe we need a Martin Lewis type crusade against it.
     
  16. SnowWhite

    SnowWhite Registered User

    Nov 18, 2016
    699
    I thought you just had to show the single sheet which says I have POA - one each for Health and Finance. I have never showed anybody the big pile of papers with the holes punched through.

    Mine are black and white too.
     
  17. jugglingmum

    jugglingmum Registered User

    Jan 5, 2014
    5,394
    Female
    Chester
    My original has holes - made by the OPG stamp
     
  18. jugglingmum

    jugglingmum Registered User

    Jan 5, 2014
    5,394
    Female
    Chester
    Most financial institutions require sight of every single page in my experience
     
  19. jugglingmum

    jugglingmum Registered User

    Jan 5, 2014
    5,394
    Female
    Chester
    This has been the case for H & W - eg when mum was in hospital with pneumonia, which presumably is the one you needed for the people you listed in your first post on this thread.

    All financial institutions (banks etc) have to abide by the money laundering regs, which are extensive, although I seem to snooze through every course I have attended and would need to retain a photocopy of either the original or certified copy, with their own staff annotating the photocopy to acknowledge it comes from the original/certified copy which they have physically seen. If they don't do this, when they have their annual inspection they could incur significant fines.

    The regs are in place for very valid reasons, the courses I have been on are real eyeopeners as to how the proceeds or crime are brought into valid circulation
     
  20. oilovlam

    oilovlam Registered User

    Aug 2, 2015
    388
    South East
    I cannot understand the stupidity of some organisations. A certified copy is the same as the original....you can make a certified copy of a 'certified copy'. The less than 12 months rule is a travesty IMO.

    Although it also drives me mad when a 'company' wants an in-date passport....as proof of ID....like an out of date passport wasn't a 'valid' document only a few months ago (people with dementia aren't going to travel much in my experience and don't want to go through the hassle & expense of getting a passport....but they still need ID). Perhaps the Alzheimer Soc. could be an advocate for a dementia 'proof of ID' document.

    I have also found that when POA is registered that all documents go to the address of the POA.....so the 'proof of address' becomes even more difficult. Ce la vie.
     

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