Not Understanding Funding

AnneF

Registered User
Jul 13, 2023
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Is the asset a property?
If so it looks like a deferred payment agreement a loan from the LA secured on the property.
When repaying you will have interest and fees to pay.
My mother doesn't own a property so I think the agreement would be a private one with the care home, but it might have to be administered via the LA as it's a topup (it's one of my assets and could take a few months to sell).

You are quite right about interest and fees, but if the agreement is with the care home that might be negotiable.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
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Chester
By way of hypothetical example:

Self funder: Let's say your income per month from pensions and benefits is £2000. Let's say you are paying £6400 a month in care home fees. Your outgoing will therefore be £4400 a month.

Local authority contributes: When you fall below the upper 23k threshold the local authority takes all of your monthly income of £2000. It also takes its tariff from you which will be approximately £128/mo. A third party is paying top up fees of £3200 a month. The losses are £5328/mo.

Local authority contributes: When you fall below the lower threshold the local authority takes all of your monthly income of £2000 but you are no longer charged a tariff. Third party continues to pay top up fees of 3200 per month. The monthly loss is then £5200.
The maths on this example isn't working.

In the self funder example they are paying £6,400 being £2,000 income and £4,400 reduction in savings.

In the la contributes your figures of £5,328 and £5,200 need to be compared to £6,400. As in all cases the £2,000 is being paid over.

So a self funder is contributing more than either of the other scenarios.

@northumbrian_k explains it in a slightly different way at post #7
 

jugglingmum

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Jan 5, 2014
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Chester
In my time on this forum it is clear that different LAs administer top ups in different ways. For some it goes via the LA and some direct to the care home. Either way the LA will pay a fixed sum and you'll have to find the difference. It will be dealt with in the LA finance dept which has no connection to SS.

If the home are prepared to consider a private deferred payment agreement against your asset I can't imagine the LA would be prepared to get involved.

I would expect the care home to want a legal charge on the property (As @nitram says) and they would want you to pay their legal fees in full to get this in place. They may also charge interest, I would consider base rate plus 5% to be considered a commercial figure.
 

AnneF

Registered User
Jul 13, 2023
145
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What happens if no family members can pay a top up, or just won't pay - where does the PWD go?
Into a local authority funded fleapit if they are unlucky (which I've seen). There are few in my region that take local authority funded only, and they tend not to be well regarded places. It's a bit of a lottery, you might get a decent placement or it might be dreadful. Being able to pay a topup fully opens up your options (Depending on how much of a top up the third party is able to pay).
 

AnneF

Registered User
Jul 13, 2023
145
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I would expect the care home to want a legal charge on the property (As @nitram says) and they would want you to pay their legal fees in full to get this in place. They may also charge interest, I would consider base rate plus 5% to be considered a commercial figure.
That's a frightening thought.

It would be great if the care homes concerned would accept the local authority rate as full payment until the asset is sold, at which point I could then commence the top ups. I can but ask, though I think it unlikely. I suppose it depends how many free beds they've got and how eager they are to fill them.
 

Neveradullday!

Registered User
Oct 12, 2022
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England
Into a local authority funded fleapit if they are unlucky (which I've seen). There are few in my region that take local authority funded only, and they tend not to be well regarded places. It's a bit of a lottery, you might get a decent placement or it might be dreadful. Being able to pay a topup fully opens up your options (Depending on how much of a top up the third party is able to pay).
Yes, that's what I guessed actually - the sort of place you wouldn't send a dog to. The sort of place that shouldn't even exist.
 

Karenjane

New member
Jun 8, 2023
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Hi my own experience is that nobody can be made to pay a top up fee but local authority will decide whether they can provide somewhere without top up fee or will actually pay the top up fee to the home or negotiate with them. However they won’t pay for anything fancy. I live where homes very scarce and no top up available from family so they paid mums fees apart from taking her pension and contribution from very small private pension.
 

Anthoula

Registered User
Apr 22, 2022
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Yes, that's what I guessed actually - the sort of place you wouldn't send a dog to. The sort of place that shouldn't even exist.
That is absolutely sickening. There must be thousands up and down the country who do not have, and can not find sufficient funds for "top ups".
 

DawnR

Registered User
Sep 14, 2022
95
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Northumberland
What happens if no family members can pay a top up, or just won't pay - where does the PWD go?
Following this thread as I was asked to pay a top up of £75 pw. There is no top up for respite care.
On top of the extra petrol costs for visiting £30-£50 pw depending on how many times I visited and losing my husband’s PIP I realised I couldn’t afford to keep him in a decent care home. I brought him home after 4 weeks mainly for financial reasons.
He had respite in two of the homes that accept LA funding with no top up and I wouldn’t wish to try another.
He was unwashed/unshaven/stuck in his room 24/7 with more than one pee on the bathroom floor. He wouldn’t have lasted long in that environment, and I couldn’t live with myself.
He gets his pension in February I’m going to put it all in a savings account in my name so I can pay the top up fee when the time comes. I’ll also have to increase my hours at work to pay my bills, which could mean I’m able to visit less.
In the meantime I will just have to manage the best I can as we all do and hope the night time aggression doesn’t get too bad. We have had some nice days since he came home six weeks ago and I am going to treasure them, but the nights are something else altogether.
I’m disgusted to be put in this position when I should be saving for my own retirement. I’ve even hoped he dies before I’m retired as I don’t know how I will find the extra money on my pension. What sort of wife does that make me.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
25,048
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South coast
I would like to say at this point that not all care homes that will accept the LA rates are places that you wouldnt put a dog into, or are flea pits.
There are many people on this forum whose relative is in a home that accepts the LA rate - @northumbrian_k is one and the home that my OH has been in for respite will accept the LA rate too. My mum was fully funded all the time she was in her care home, so I do not know about top-ups, but it was certainly at the lower end of the market. The care in mums and OHs case has been wonderful.
 

AnneF

Registered User
Jul 13, 2023
145
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Hi my own experience is that nobody can be made to pay a top up fee but local authority will decide whether they can provide somewhere without top up fee or will actually pay the top up fee to the home or negotiate with them. However they won’t pay for anything fancy. I live where homes very scarce and no top up available from family so they paid mums fees apart from taking her pension and contribution from very small private pension.
You're right that they won't pay for anything fancy. However it has turned out that the only homes I have shortlisted that meet my mother's needs are quite fancy - although the price per week is very close to the other homes we have looked at. One is brand new and presumably eager to fill beds, so could be open to some negotiation.

My mother had a bad head injury a few years ago in an RTA followed by three years of rehab (learning to talk again, regain her balance and movement etc). This left her immensely noise sensitive to the point where if we go out it always has to be a quiet location, no noisy cafes, she doesn't watch television or put the radio on and when she goes to daycare she spends most of her time in the sensory room because it's silent. Too much noise brings on migraine, vertigo and sickness. This means that a care home with a quiet lounge and hopefully a quiet bedroom is absolutely vital to her well-being - she would not cope otherwise. Most of the places I've been in (particularly the ones which accept local authority funding in full) have been nothing short of deafening (televisions blaring in every room, radios blaring in all other spaces) - distressing for me so would be unbearable for my poor mother. This isn't a preference, it's a very real need.

The other need that my mum has is plenty of activities and residents who are able to enjoy varied conversations. A dementia or nursing home would be highly detrimental to my mum because of her social needs - and her dementia is still fairly mild with no wandering or aggression. I would therefore argue that she needs to be on a residential wing but might benefit from having dementia care and nursing care also available in the same establishment, to avoid moving her later on.

Another thing that I would consider a need would be that I could access her easily and often so I would want a home that was within half an hour's drive. I've been her primary carer every day for the last year.

The above reasons are why I am so preoccupied with discussing top ups, I cannot let my mum go into a place which would make her ill. I just want her to be well cared for and happy in her surroundings
 

AnneF

Registered User
Jul 13, 2023
145
0
He was unwashed/unshaven/stuck in his room 24/7 with more than one pee on the bathroom floor. He wouldn’t have lasted long in that environment, and I couldn’t live with myself.
He gets his pension in February I’m going to put it all in a savings account in my name so I can pay the top up fee when the time comes. I’ll also have to increase my hours at work to pay my bills, which could mean I’m able to visit less.
In the meantime I will just have to manage the best I can as we all do and hope the night time aggression doesn’t get too bad. We have had some nice days since he came home six weeks ago and I am going to treasure them, but the nights are something else altogether.
I’m disgusted to be put in this position when I should be saving for my own retirement. I’ve even hoped he dies before I’m retired as I don’t know how I will find the extra money on my pension. What sort of wife does that make me.
I am so very sorry to hear what you and your husband have been through. I do want to say that over the last few weeks when I have been looking at care homes, the majority appear to be clean and safe (even if they don't meet my mother's requirements).

Whether you are self funding or not, it's important that you report any concerns to the care home manager, social services, and the care quality commission. I went through this process at the beginning of this year when the hospital discharge my mother to an assessment bed for a few weeks. The place was so deplorable I removed my mother immediately. I went through a long complaints procedure and discovered that I was not the only person gravely worried about that establishment.

Please do not blame yourself for your thoughts. Tiredness, anxiety and stress is a terrible thing and we cannot simply cover it up. If you haven't already there are carers support services who can give advice, there is also the Age UK helpline, Carewise and of course the Alzheimers phone line.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
7,104
0
Chester
The home nearest to me takes the LA rate.

I liked it very much but it always keeps the last spare bed for LA funded and so I couldn't get my mum in there.

It happens to have one of the best reputations in the area as do both it's sister homes (all are ex coucil care homes)

The home mum did move into was very much at the cheaper end of the market and I couldn't fault it.

Whilst the TV was on in the lounge it was never particularly loud and in general I found the home very quiet.

I guess it depends on what you consider is essential.
 

AnneF

Registered User
Jul 13, 2023
145
0
I would like to say at this point that not all care homes that will accept the LA rates are places that you wouldnt put a dog into, or are flea pits.
There are many people on this forum whose relative is in a home that accepts the LA rate - @northumbrian_k is one and the home that my OH has been in for respite will accept the LA rate too. My mum was fully funded all the time she was in her care home, so I do not know about top-ups, but it was certainly at the lower end of the market. The care in mums and OHs case has been wonderful.
Agree - there are some good ones out there. Although it is something of a lottery if they have free spaces when you need one, and are within reasonable travelling distance.
 

northumbrian_k

Volunteer Host
Mar 2, 2017
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Newcastle
I don't think that I have done my wife a disservice by placing her in a care home that accepts the Local Authority rate. It is domestic in scale, a little worn in places, has the clearest demonstration of what personalised care really means and is far from being a 'fleapit'. It saddens me to hear places described in this way. There is a money-oriented category of care home that styles itself as 'luxury' or 'hotel quality' and is aimed at people who wish to do the 'best' without necessarily knowing what this means. As dementia progresses, fancy surroundings and similar bells and whistles become less important to the person with dementia. Needs increase and become more basic. Staff who really care and bond with the residents are more important than superficial luxuries. We all want the best care for our loved ones but that isn't always found by simply paying more
 
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northumbrian_k

Volunteer Host
Mar 2, 2017
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Newcastle
@DawnR said "He gets his pension in February I’m going to put it all in a savings account in my name so I can pay the top up fee when the time comes".

I suggest being very careful here. Are you sure that this is even legal?