My two invisible siblings want my mum's money

[hillymilly]

I'm feeling really upset, sad and angry today.

I have two other siblings, both invisibles, and have joint POA with one of them for my mum. Both of them never want to know how mum is doing.

Today, after many months of waiting, mum's flat has just sold and the money has been shared out between her (half of the proceeds) and the other half split between us three children (which had been held in trust after our dad died).

My mum moved in with me at the end of January this year, into an extension we had built for her. I get carers allowance for her, and mum gets attendance allowance. Mum pays a nominal rent to me.

My invisibles want to split my mum's share of the flat proceeds between us three children. I want nothing to do with this and have told my POA sibling so. It is my mum's money and we should be looking at the best way to invest it.

I promised my mum that I would never put her into a care home, but I think that my invisibles want to try and hide money ftom Social Services. I've told them that SS would check mum's finances any way if she went into care.

I'm extremely worried about this, but am loathe to get solicitors involved as I know it could/will probably turn nasty.

I'm so tired, after getting the building work done, spending 4 months emptying mum's flat, arranging solicitors etc etc, and caring for mum.

I just don't know which way to turn.

 

[Linbrusco]

I'm feeling really upset, sad and angry today.

I have two other siblings, both invisibles, and have joint POA with one of them for my mum. Both of them never want to know how mum is doing.

Today, after many months of waiting, mum's flat has just sold and the money has been shared out between her (half of the proceeds) and the other half split between us three children (which had been held in trust after our dad died).

My mum moved in with me at the end of January this year, into an extension we had built for her. I get carers allowance for her, and mum gets attendance allowance. Mum pays a nominal rent to me.

My invisibles want to split my mum's share of the flat proceeds between us three children. I want nothing to do with this and have told my POA sibling so. It is my mum's money and we should be looking at the best way to invest it.

I promised my mum that I would never put her into a care home, but I think that my invisibles want to try and hide money ftom Social Services. I've told them that SS would check mum's finances any way if she went into care.

I'm extremely worried about this, but am loathe to get solicitors involved as I know it could/will probably turn nasty.

I'm so tired, after getting the building work done, spending 4 months emptying mum's flat, arranging solicitors etc etc, and caring for mum.

I just don't know which way to turn.

I might be from another country, but I am sure long and short of it is, you cant.
Your Mums half share of the sale of the house, would be used in any future financial assesments, plus your POA is joint. Your invisible siblings, are probably banking on the fact, that you will care for her regardless, but thats an impossible future to predict.
If her money was split between you three, and later on care was necessary, I can't imagine the legal & financial implications for you all!

When my mother was being assessed for care, our Social Services went back 9 yrs, to when my parents sold their house, and used majority of it to build a house on the back of our property. Thankfully I keep every scrap of paperwork.

 

[hillymilly]

Thanks. I think I just needed someone to confirm that I'm not going bonkers! It's very wearing keeping on top of all of this, as well as looking after mum.

 

[Beate]

I don't understand enough about the trust fund business to comment on you distributing that part of your Mum's money before she has died, but taking the other half before you have officially inherited it is definitely illegal. It's basically theft, plus in this case it's also deprivation of assets. That's when you reduce someone's money who might need it to pay for care at some point. If Social Services were ever asked to provide/finance care they could legitimately ask for bank statements going back years and demand money that was so blatantly disposed of, to be paid back. As an attorney you have to act in the donor's best interests. If you are joint attorney with your sister and not joint and several, then it should be easy anyway - she can't act without your permission, and if she tries anyway, you could report her to the OPG and the police.

This is serious - don't let your siblings steal your mother's money. They can inherit it once she's gone, but not before.

 

[Kevinl]

Benefitting from being the holder of a POA, as a POA all decisions must be made in the best interest of the person concerned and giving away all her cash probably isn't in your mum's best interest.
At best they may be asked to repay the money, at worst prosecuted for financial abuse, never looks good on your CV and probably means you won't be visiting Florida (or indeed anywhere in the USA) in the near future. Likewise there may be career implications from any conviction.
K

 

[canary]

I am assuming that the half held in trust was your dads half of the house which was left in his will to his children. Distributing that now is right and proper, but your siblings cant take your mums half for themselves - that is illegal and will lead to all sorts of problems. If you cant prevent them from taking it then I would contact the Office of Public Guardians about it.

 

[hillymilly]

Yes canary, half of the money was in trust from my dad, as my parents owned the flat as tenants in common.
I can't believe how awful this is probably going to be. Me and my invisible sibling are POA jointly and severally.
I just want to protect my mum and her money from this situation. My invisible POA, according to her, said my mum told her "she doesn't need all that money".
Well, as my mum has dementia, and doesn't understand anything about money/bills/ etc any more, I cannot believe that my sibling would think that it was a logical conclusion to take it off her!
I am so, so, angry about it. My heart is racing just thinking about it now.
I'm going to try and get some sleep, but I'll probably be awake until 3 am!

 

[DMac]

If I were you, I would actually seek legal advice from a solicitor who specialises in trusts and in elder care matters. This is not about turning nasty; it's more about seeking professional advice to protect yourself from future unintended consequences. You can then use the solicitor's advice as authority to justify your actions to your siblings.

Whether or not your mum's house sale proceeds can be distributed will depend upon many factors, so I cannot possibly comment on the legalities of the proposed distribution. However, I feel sure you will almost certainly need to keep some of it back for one reason or another.

My OH has just gone through a similar situation with his siblings and the sale of his widowed mother's house, also held in trust (in fact 2 separate trusts). My MIL is currently mid-stages Alzheimer's, and has been in a residential care home for the past year. In this case, the local authority have completed a financial assessment and decided not to challenge the trusts, so there appears to be no reason to withhold the cash from the siblings. However, OH has spoken to a solicitor, who has advised him about a possible capital gains tax liability, which he hadn't anticipated. Then there will be the costs associated with administering the trusts, possibly paying 10 year anniversary tax charges, and (eventually) winding them up.

I should mention that MIL pays a contribution towards her care home fees from her pension income, and the LA did not asked for a top-up. If she should need a different level of care in future, my OH and siblings understand that they may well be asked to provide the necessary top-up, so one way or another her future needs will be met.

The main message I want to convey is - please take advice from a qualified solicitor who specialises in this complex area, and don't be bullied by your siblings into making any cash distributions until you have done so.

 

[Saffie]

Dmac, regardless of the trust set up for hillymilly and her siblings which is a separate matter, the half of the proceeds from the sale of the house will, as I understand it, still belong to her mother. Her mother is still alive and this is her capital and cannot be distributed amongst the siblings as being attourneys, they have a duty to protect their mother's finances and cannot profit from it in any way.
If the LA are ever involved, they will want the money repaid as it will be viewed as a deliberate deprivation of assets.
It is worrying that the LPA is several as well as joint as the siblings could access the money without hillymilly' kmowing.
I wish you as peaceful a night as is possible hillymilly.

 

[Aisling]

I'm feeling really upset, sad and angry today.

I have two other siblings, both invisibles, and have joint POA with one of them for my mum. Both of them never want to know how mum is doing.

Today, after many months of waiting, mum's flat has just sold and the money has been shared out between her (half of the proceeds) and the other half split between us three children (which had been held in trust after our dad died).

My mum moved in with me at the end of January this year, into an extension we had built for her. I get carers allowance for her, and mum gets attendance allowance. Mum pays a nominal rent to me.

My invisibles want to split my mum's share of the flat proceeds between us three children. I want nothing to do with this and have told my POA sibling so. It is my mum's money and we should be looking at the best way to invest it.

I promised my mum that I would never put her into a care home, but I think that my invisibles want to try and hide money ftom Social Services. I've told them that SS would check mum's finances any way if she went into care.

I'm extremely worried about this, but am loathe to get solicitors involved as I know it could/will probably turn nasty.

I'm so tired, after getting the building work done, spending 4 months emptying mum's flat, arranging solicitors etc etc, and caring for mum.

I just don't know which way to turn.

Quick reply. No one can take your Mums money. POA carries responsibilities and surely it is illegal to take someone's money. If fair deal is used in future, they investigate all assets over the past five years. Get some advice from solicitor..... Just advice. For now. You don't need to tell anyone your business.

Hugs,

Aisling.

 

[oilovlam]

The other POA could in theory start 'distributing' your mum's assets without your consent (because you are 'Jointly & Severally' POA's) BUT it would be illegal. You need to make them aware that they have responsibilities as POA.

You probably need to keep an eye on those assets regularly just in case there are some 'unusual' transactions (large sums, as well as smaller & regular amounts). But because they have even suggested doing it then you probably need to seek legal advice (as suggested). A letter from a solicitor detailing their responsibilities as a POA and the consequences of abusing that trust etc etc. You have to protect yourself as well as your mother.

People do strange things when money is involved.

 

[Pear trees]

Take legal advice straight away to make it clear to your Sib!Inge they cannot have money while your mum is alive. it is hers, to pay for care if needed. I would suggest you look at more care for your mum and use her money to make her life more comfortable.
My invisible brother regularly asked for a 'loan' and got very angry when I said no.
I took legal advice and showed him their response. He has not spoken to me since but leaves me to arrange care etc.

 

[RedLou]

Do get specialist advice, including looking into the gifted half share and its implications.

 

[hillymilly]

Thanks everyone.

I had a very fitful night and didn't actually get to sleep until about 4.45 am. So now I'm feeling really, really tired as well as angry, worried etc.

I shall be off to make an appointment on Monday at a local solicitors. I'm hoping against hope that my two invisibles will change their minds and realise what a stupid, fraudulent and irresponsible idea the whole thing is.

 

[MaNaAk]

Yes canary, half of the money was in trust from my dad, as my parents owned the flat as tenants in common.
I can't believe how awful this is probably going to be. Me and my invisible sibling are POA jointly and severally.
I just want to protect my mum and her money from this situation. My invisible POA, according to her, said my mum told her "she doesn't need all that money".
Well, as my mum has dementia, and doesn't understand anything about money/bills/ etc any more, I cannot believe that my sibling would think that it was a logical conclusion to take it off her!
I am so, so, angry about it. My heart is racing just thinking about it now.
I'm going to try and get some sleep, but I'll probably be awake until 3 am!

Dear Milly,

I wonder if your siblings have considered that they would have to look after your mum if anything happened to you. Beate and Kevin have pointed out the legal side but technically sharing your mum's money could mean that they are depriving her of going into the best care home in the future.

My brothers are carrying on with their busy lives and the youngest one has told me that he doesn't want to come and stay with dad when I go away but they are actually concerned that he gets the best possible carers. Also I realise that because the youngest one doesn't want to stay with dad I think he could be afraid of the unknown! Do you think that this is part of the problem with your invisible siblings?

There have been many times when my heart has been racing such as trying to put the house in my name and being told by the elder of my two brothers that I have been slow to do anything. However I am the one caring for dad sorting out his finances, trying to get biometric residency for him before being able to get all the benefits. When I told my elder brother that putting the house in my name is seen as selling off an asset (never mind all the taxes) he said I should have thought of my nephews being deprived of their inheritance! Siblings who are not involved in caring have no idea about these things and I don't like to think of you lying awake until 3 am worrying about this.

If you can try and get hold of some literature about this and tell them how you are feeling. Tell them that all this stress is making you ill and I also think you need to talk to them about having carers in and their cost. This should make them start to sit up and think again about your mum's money.

Good luck and hugs from

MaNaAk

 

[DMac]

Dmac, regardless of the trust set up for hillymilly and her siblings which is a separate matter, the half of the proceeds from the sale of the house will, as I understand it, still belong to her mother.

Saffie, only a solicitor can clarify the position with the trusts. Mum's share of the house might be held in trust, too, which she might have a beneficial interest in, but not own outright. It is possible to set up discretionary trusts in one's lifetime to, as well as will trusts, which become active after death. It's not clear whether hillymilly is a trustee, either. This is a separate function from a holder of power of attorney.

In any case, hillymilly, I'm glad you have decided to see a solicitor. I think we will all agree that you are taking the right course of action!

Do let us know how you get on, and have a restful night tonight. Best wishes.

 

[Saffie]

Dear Milly,

I wonder if your siblings have considered that they would have to look after your mum if anything happened to you. Beate and Kevin have pointed out the legal side but technically sharing your mum's money could mean that they are depriving her of going into the best care home in the future.

My brothers are carrying on with their busy lives and the youngest one has told me that he doesn't want to come and stay with dad when I go away but they are actually concerned that he gets the best possible carers. Also I realise that because the youngest one doesn't want to stay with dad I think he could be afraid of the unknown! Do you think that this is part of the problem with your invisible siblings?

There have been many times when my heart has been racing such as trying to put the house in my name and being told by the elder of my two brothers that I have been slow to do anything. However I am the one caring for dad sorting out his finances, trying to get biometric residency for him before being able to get all the benefits. When I told my elder brother that putting the house in my name is seen as selling off an asset (never mind all the taxes) he said I should have thought of my nephews being deprived of their inheritance! Siblings who are not involved in caring have no idea about these things and I don't like to think of you lying awake until 3 am worrying about this.

If you can try and get hold of some literature about this and tell them how you are feeling. Tell them that all this stress is making you ill and I also think you need to talk to them about having carers in and their cost. This should make them start to sit up and think again about your mum's money.

Good luck and hugs from

MaNaAk

Sorry if I have misunderstood but did you say you have put your father's house in your name?

 

[Saffie]

Saffie, only a solicitor can clarify the position with the trusts. Mum's share of the house might be held in trust, too, which she might have a beneficial interest in, but not own outright. It is possible to set up discretionary trusts in one's lifetime to, as well as will trusts, which become active after death. It's not clear whether hillymilly is a trustee, either. This is a separate function from a holder of power of attorney.

In any case, hillymilly, I'm glad you have decided to see a solicitor. I think we will all agree that you are taking the right course of action!

Do let us know how you get on, and have a restful night tonight. Best wishes.

Yes sorry, I didn't realise the mother's half of the property was in a trust too. That does make it more complicated.

 

[MaNaAk]

Sorry if I have misunderstood but did you say you have put your father's house in your name?

Sorry Saffie,

I haven't put my dad's house in my name but I investigated the possibility to avoid being made homeless but I founf out that as Beate and Kevin say it is the same as selling off an asset so I am staying put. However I was told by the council that a social worker would be working with me to avoid my being made homeless. Yes! It's a worry but this is something that I need to think about in the future if dad needs to go into a care home. Meanwhile he's not so bad today despite this morning's confusion!

Love

MaNaAk

 

[MaNaAk]

Sorry if I have misunderstood but did you say you have put your father's house in your name?

Dear Saffie and Hilly Milly,

I'm sorry I made a mistake here! I should have addressed this post to Saffie rather than Hilly Milly.

Sorry again and good luck

MaNaAk