Is LPA legal?

[Honeymonster]

Dads been in a specialist secure Dementia care home for 4 years and family member was supporting him (lets call them TP) Dad died and I am one of the Executors. It transpires that in the last 6months an LPA for finances was registered with the Office of the Public Guardians (OPG) . However we can't understand how this is possible as Dad has had Alzheimers for 4-5 years, and when he went into the care home a Deprivation of Liberty assessment (DoLs) was put in place. The certificate provider was someone my Dad hadn't seen for years and even then only a fleeting connection and they attended the care home with TP and signed to say Dad had his mental capacity! Surely this should have been a court of protection order and they didn't tell anyone else in the family so we had no idea this had happened.

As Executors, we now have access to Dads bank statements and its become clear that TP has had Dads bank card for at least three years and has been systematically draining cash from the account and when he got the LPA this stepped up and he hasn't paid some bills. There are purchases on Dads bank account for holidays, petrol, young trendy clothing (he was 92), Ikea, and onlline grocery shopping so presumably it would be easy to trace who actually got the stuff if they had the right powers. Tried reporting to the OPG and they say that their power stopped when Dad died. Tried claiming fraud with the bank and they say they were not advised Dad was a vulnerable person nor was the LPA registered with them and its basically our word against TPs that Dad hadn't given him permission to spend his money but Dad didn't have the mental capacity. They say we should have reported this sooner but we had no reason to suspect or have access to the documents.

We know TP knew Dad had been diagnosed with Dementia as he told the local authority that Dad had dementia to get a concession on Council Tax nearly 4 years ago and they confirmed it with the GP. We have reported it to the police as the bank is £50-£100,000 adrift and they have taken a statement and they are investigating but I have been advised by a knowledgeable friend that this is possibly going to be classed as a civil not police matter. Surely this can't be right?

Where do we go from here, any advice?

 

[try again]

If the bank had no knowledge of the lpa, then his accounts were surely accessed illegally?
Have you approached the police?

 

[Honeymonster]

Yes I have and an appointment has been made for me to make a statement but it has been suggested by a knowledgeable third party that they will perceive this as a civil matter.

I think along the same lines as you so what has been unfolding has shocked me.

However if the LPA is legal then TP has a responsibility to act in the best interests of my Dad and that can't be going into unauthorised overdrafts, not paying care home fees and not maintaining his house!

I'm just really confused about how they got an LPA but I am being told by others that its quite common for people in dementia care homes to arrange LPA's as they don't need to understand the finances themselves but may have the capacity and understanding to say who they want to deal with it.

 

[MarieD]

Hi sorry to hear this has happened
I can offer advice from experience and you need to get evidence from your fathers GP about his dementia. When was he diagnosed when did he lose mental capacity etc, also evidence from social services and his care home.Having the Dolls information is great ask the care home for copies of their reports.
The police will investigate because it is classed as fraud but they won’t take it to court unless they have enough evidence, and the crucial thing is you need to prove without doubt that your father was in no fit state to apply for the LPA and also his mental state before the LPA was issued when large amounts were spent.
The OPG will only investigate money spent since the POA was registered ( but I use the word investigate loosely)

My case against my brother has been going on now for over two years I’m not sure I’ll ever get justice for what he’s done. However I spotted what was happening pretty early so he didn’t take anywhere near as much as this.
I hope it all works out for you it’s so frustrating the injustice of it all.

 

[MarieD]

I have found this is it helps ?

https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/threads/does-opg-investigation-stop-on-death-of-donor.126834/reply?quote=1787149

 

[Honeymonster]

Hi sorry to hear this has happened
I can offer advice from experience and you need to get evidence from your fathers GP about his dementia. When was he diagnosed when did he lose mental capacity etc, also evidence from social services and his care home.Having the Dolls information is great ask the care home for copies of their reports.
The police will investigate because it is classed as fraud but they won’t take it to court unless they have enough evidence, and the crucial thing is you need to prove without doubt that your father was in no fit state to apply for the LPA and also his mental state before the LPA was issued when large amounts were spent.
The OPG will only investigate money spent since the POA was registered ( but I use the word investigate loosely)

My case against my brother has been going on now for over two years I’m not sure I’ll ever get justice for what he’s done. However I spotted what was happening pretty early so he didn’t take anywhere near as much as this.
I hope it all works out for you it’s so frustrating the injustice of it all.

Thank you for giving me some hope that I may get justice. Care Home are staying stum, they do not want to get involved so trying the local authority that the DoLs would have been sent to. Trying to get info from Social Services but they are telling me there is no allocated caseworker. OPG not interested as they say their power ends upon death but I say the LPA should never have existed if the forms had been completed truthfully and it should have been a court of protection order.

Its all coming out now that before my Dad went into the care home, the neighbours were getting tales from him about not trusting TP and in fairness he had wanted me to handle his affairs but Mum and Dad are divorced (many years ago) and I stayed with mum at the other side of the country and I now look after her, work fulltime and have a dicky ticker so I didn't have the capacity or finances to support him too given he was at the other side of the country and I don't drive for health reasons . I had no qualms about TP looking after him as although we didn't get on, I had no reason to believe TP wasn't trustworthy as TP has a high level job looking after vulnerable people.


Thank you for responding and good luck with your fight.

 

[Jessbow]

If you were not paying his bills and etc, and were not aware the TP had POA to do so, who did you think was?
The POA could have been drawn up years ago, and registered 6 months ago. All the cert provider would have to do is ask dad if he thought it was a good idea for TP to pay his bills for him now.
Dad only has to say ''yes''

COP order has nothng to do with POA a all.
Very wrong of TP to cream off money for themself- What do they have to say about your dad having paid for such as holidays?

 

[Grannie G]

Hello @Honeymonster

Please contact the Dementia Support Line. I'm sure they will be able to help you

dementia-support-line

 

[Honeymonster]

If you were not paying his bills and etc, and were not aware the TP had POA to do so, who did you think was?
The POA could have been drawn up years ago, and registered 6 months ago. All the cert provider would have to do is ask dad if he thought it was a good idea for TP to pay his bills for him now.
Dad only has to say ''yes''

COP order has nothng to do with POA a all.
Very wrong of TP to cream off money for themself- What do they have to say about your dad having paid for such as holidays?

Mum and Dad are divorced, I stayed with mum other side of country and I look after her. Can't be in two places at once.


TP admits documents created last year and is dated end of last year. So if Dad had full blown dementia, with a DoLs in place I'm thinking an LPA wasn't appropriate as Dad didn't have mental capacity so TP should have gone for court of protection order instead. I have never looked after finances for someone in a care home and didn't know how it worked - benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I had no idea what TP was doing and OPG were verbally advised that whilst locked in a dementia care unit, which he never once left by his own choice, my Dad was apparently filling his petrol tank up (he doesn't drive so doesn't have car),:was shopping in Ikea, was having grocery deliveries etc. OPg said they had no powers as Dad had passed.

 

[Jessbow]

Mum and Dad are divorced, I stayed with mum other side of country and I look after her. Can't be in two places at once.

No, I get that . I suppose we assum that whoever was 'team dad' was paying his fees as he went along. or that he was funded- independant of your Mum.

 

[Honeymonster]

Marie D - sorry it won't let me quote you as I'm too new to add links in my posts! But....

Hi Marie D,

That is REALLY helpful. Bizarrely I think I may have done just this by accident. I emailed the OPG the other day on the appropriate form to report this as a safeguarding issue as I wasn't just taking their verbal comments and I attached all the bank statements and evidence of abuse etc I have gathered so far (but there is more to come) and I asked them to explain why they wouldn't/couldn't address the blatant abuse as surely TP was responsible for using the money in the best interests of Dad. I just wanted a clear written audit trail for the Police and Financial ombudsman as I am aghast that the bank (as lovely as they were) say they can't help either.

I have to say here that I am the type of person that will not just take someone's word for it in officialdom and I will challenge and push but what is really hitting me here is that I am used to dealing with bureaucracy and knocking on peoples doors to get answers but this is really difficult and I have to wonder how others with less confidence or willingness to question go on, particularly when they are caring for someone or have just suffered a loss. Its a real eye opener. The toll its taking on me and I have a lovely family and close friends to support me...it makes me wonder how others cope.

Update, just been told this is unlikely to work sadly but lets see what this produces anyway....gonna keep knocking at doors

 

[Honeymonster]

Hello @Honeymonster

Please contact the Dementia Support Line. I'm sure they will be able to help you

I have thank you and the lady I spoke with was lovely, I bawled my eyes out retelling the full tale, the evidence of financial abuse is strong so lets see what the police say!

 

[Honeymonster]

If the bank had no knowledge of the lpa, then his accounts were surely accessed illegally?
Have you approached the police?

I have indeed and will see what they say but it may not be as simple as that as per my original post.

 

[SAP]

I’ve just had a very quick read through and just have 2 points. One being a person with dementia , even quite advanced does not mean they do not have mental capacity to sign a POA. Also DoLS does not mean a person does not have mental capacity but that they are unable to live unsupported and need to be prevented form leaving a place of safety for their own or others protection. I know this all sounds counterintuitive but there are so many loop holes for TP to manage to wriggle through. You job is to prove beyond doubt that your dad did not have mental capacity when he signed the LPA . The certificate provider clearly though he did, unfortunately this does not have to be anyone other than a person who has known the provider for over 2 years.
This is a dreadful moral breach of your dads trust but proving it is very hard.

 

[Honeymonster]

I’ve just had a very quick read through and just have 2 points. One being a person with dementia , even quite advanced does not mean they do not have mental capacity to sign a POA. Also DoLS does not mean a person does not have mental capacity but that they are unable to live unsupported and need to be prevented form leaving a place of safety for their own or others protection. I know this all sounds counterintuitive but there are so many loop holes for TP to manage to wriggle through. You job is to prove beyond doubt that your dad did not have mental capacity when he signed the LPA . The certificate provider clearly though he did, unfortunately this does not have to be anyone other than a person who has known the provider for over 2 years.
This is a dreadful moral breach of your dads trust but proving it is very hard.

Yes, I appreciate that, I had come to the same conclusion but basically if TP did have a legal LPA, then TP did not look after Dads best interest and prior to the LPA coming into affect, that does not explain the 3 years of TP helping themself to Dads money which is easily provable. And TP did not register the lpa with the bank the money was being raided from,

 

[nitram]

that does not explain the 3 years of TP helping themself to Dads money which is easily provable

TP can claim Dad gave him permission, any proof of Dad's capacity during that time?
If the power was not registered with the court TP was not an attorney and could accept gifts.

 

[Honeymonster]

TP can claim Dad gave him permission, any proof of Dad's capacity during that time?
If the power was not registered with the court TP was not an attorney and could accept gifts.

The LPA was created 4 months befor it eas ratified by the OPG. TP just didn't register it with the banks.


I have letters I sent to social services and neighbours willing to attest to his financial vulnerability before he was admited to care home. Also asked GP and Social services for copy of medical reports/ assessments. But again, total mismanagement of finances as overdrawn at bank etc.

 

[Ineedhelp]

Dads been in a specialist secure Dementia care home for 4 years and family member was supporting him (lets call them TP) Dad died and I am one of the Executors. It transpires that in the last 6months an LPA for finances was registered with the Office of the Public Guardians (OPG) . However we can't understand how this is possible as Dad has had Alzheimers for 4-5 years, and when he went into the care home a Deprivation of Liberty assessment (DoLs) was put in place. The certificate provider was someone my Dad hadn't seen for years and even then only a fleeting connection and they attended the care home with TP and signed to say Dad had his mental capacity! Surely this should have been a court of protection order and they didn't tell anyone else in the family so we had no idea this had happened.

As Executors, we now have access to Dads bank statements and its become clear that TP has had Dads bank card for at least three years and has been systematically draining cash from the account and when he got the LPA this stepped up and he hasn't paid some bills. There are purchases on Dads bank account for holidays, petrol, young trendy clothing (he was 92), Ikea, and onlline grocery shopping so presumably it would be easy to trace who actually got the stuff if they had the right powers. Tried reporting to the OPG and they say that their power stopped when Dad died. Tried claiming fraud with the bank and they say they were not advised Dad was a vulnerable person nor was the LPA registered with them and its basically our word against TPs that Dad hadn't given him permission to spend his money but Dad didn't have the mental capacity. They say we should have reported this sooner but we had no reason to suspect or have access to the documents.

We know TP knew Dad had been diagnosed with Dementia as he told the local authority that Dad had dementia to get a concession on Council Tax nearly 4 years ago and they confirmed it with the GP. We have reported it to the police as the bank is £50-£100,000 adrift and they have taken a statement and they are investigating but I have been advised by a knowledgeable friend that this is possibly going to be classed as a civil not police matter. Surely this can't be right?

Where do we go from here, any advice?

Hi, I went through a similar issues with TT's they took our father (monster) who had no capacity and had vascular dementia into Santandar. They managed to transfer £45,000 out of my parent's joint account, bearing in mind he didn't know what day of the week it was(vascular dementia). Terrible twins also managed several visits into Santander too look at the accounts. All the staff knew something was wrong with him. Sister- in law worked for TSB at the time,she was horrified that there was no vunerable person's check done. Staff if they know the person is vunerable take them into a room and talk to them on there own. TT's coached the monster to cancel DD's for my mum.
Police Scotland viewed it as a non-criminal matter and took no further action. SW were lied to by the TT who told them, they hadn't taken monster into the bank.
Try your local MP or a solicitor that is fraud.

 

[Honeymonster]

Hi, I went through a similar issues with TT's they took our father (monster) who had no capacity and had vascular dementia into Santandar. They managed to transfer £45,000 out of my parent's joint account, bearing in mind he didn't know what day of the week it was(vascular dementia). Terrible twins also managed several visits into Santander too look at the accounts. All the staff knew something was wrong with him. Sister- in law worked for TSB at the time,she was horrified that there was no vunerable person's check done. Staff if they know the person is vunerable take them into a room and talk to them on there own. TT's coached the monster to cancel DD's for my mum.
Police Scotland viewed it as a non-criminal matter and took no further action. SW were lied to by the TT who told them, they hadn't taken monster into the bank.
Try your local MP or a solicitor that is fraud.

I feel for you. . But the honest answer is they are not interested and that message is being drilled home.

Its a good job I believe in Karma and what goes around comes around Cos if I was TP I"d be living in protective clothing in a bomb shelter cos there is a big karmic shock inbound. Ah if only!

 

[MarieD]

I doubt you’ll get anywhere with OPG plus they don’t really investigate.
Surely you will be next of kin? The care home should keep all documents relaying to your father I would think legally you’re allowed to look at everything being next of kin ? Not sure how the other family member who has the POA for your father is related to him ?
I would advise you seek professional help perhaps and get a solicitors letter sent to the care home asking for all your fathers GP records etc if they’re unwilling to show you ? While Dols refers to Deprivation of Liberty my mothers forms clearly showed she’d lost mental capacity as it detailed observations and they also summarised her condition so it is useful as evidence.
Obviously you’d need something from the GP office to also stare when mental capacity was lost.
As I stated before though while all the evidence points to fraud without 100% evidence to prove this the police won’t take it to the cps so the more evidence you can get the better. The GP evidence is crucial.
However it’s highly likely the money has gone I’m afraid.

I must admit it has opened my eyes to how unjust this is and how easy it is to get away with this type of theft