Is LPA legal?

MarieD

Registered User
Dec 26, 2021
110
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Forgot to say
The crucial point is when did your father lose mental capacity you need a specific date you need someone in authority to state this so GP / care home manager / social services ( all three would be brilliant! But just the GP is needed)
If the money taken out was after this date then I would assume you’ve got an excellent case !
If the money was taken out before mental capacity was lost then this family member could come up with any story to justify why the money was given to them I’m afraid.
Also will your fathers assets mean you’ve got to go to probate ? If so any large amounts given as gifts in the last 7 years will have to be included in the estate for inheritance tax.
I would suggest you contact a solicitor and talk through your options.
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
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I doubt you’ll get anywhere with OPG plus they don’t really investigate.
Surely you will be next of kin? The care home should keep all documents relaying to your father I would think legally you’re allowed to look at everything being next of kin ? Not sure how the other family member who has the POA for your father is related to him ?
I would advise you seek professional help perhaps and get a solicitors letter sent to the care home asking for all your fathers GP records etc if they’re unwilling to show you ? While Dols refers to Deprivation of Liberty my mothers forms clearly showed she’d lost mental capacity as it detailed observations and they also summarised her condition so it is useful as evidence.
Obviously you’d need something from the GP office to also stare when mental capacity was lost.
As I stated before though while all the evidence points to fraud without 100% evidence to prove this the police won’t take it to the cps so the more evidence you can get the better. The GP evidence is crucial.
However it’s highly likely the money has gone I’m afraid.

I must admit it has opened my eyes to how unjust this is and how easy it is to get away with this type of theft
But TP has a nice big house and a nice fat shiny car.

My family dynamics are complicated and I'm staying hazy as knowing what is going on, TP may be turning to help forums like me. But as I was looking after Mum and TP was looking after Dad at other side of country, TP was pkaced on carehome paperwork as next of kin for practical reasons and emergencies as I was too far away to respond quickly to emergencies. But the Executorship and easily evidenced financial abuse seem to trump that in most areas.

But care home are providing me with reports as are social services. And Dads neighbours are being very supportive of me! Never seen a DoLs so thanks for the info and I will scrutinise this carefully when I get the copy.


Got to say that I am a strong person and this has me on my knees. TP has gone on attack and is basically trying to insinuate others have helped themselves to the money. Given TP admits TP had the card, to draw money out for care home fees when TP never actually paid more than a couple of months...good luck with making that one stick mate. Plus ordering stuff on Dads card for home delivery gives the police a lot to go on lol! Talking grocery shops, Next, Ikea, and also used it to pay for paypal too - all easily traceable by police.


They can check me out too because I have nothing to hide. One week in April when TP helped themselves to £1000 in cash over several days, I was 300 miles away on holiday. Similar thing in Feb, I was participating in a 24hr charity event with 40 other people and it was live streamed so no way it was me. But then TP will claim it was my husband or the neighbours and so it gets nasty.... TP has already started the ground work for this. But hey we haven't done it so WE have nothing to fear.

But having said all of this, its my word against TP that Dad didn't voluntarily give TP the card and say "go spend - I want you to have it', and Police prosecutions require a higher level of evidence than civil cases so who knows if they will help.


The local authority who aren't going to get their care home fees maybe interested though... And TP has a house to go after!


My inheritance has gone due to care home fees, I always knew that would be the case but I didn't expect to have to pay £300 a month to keep Dads house connected and insured whilst it sells (sale value all gone in equity release) because TP snaffled all the cash and left unpaid bills.

I never drempt it would play out like this and Dad would be devastated at this turn of events.
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
Forgot to say
The crucial point is when did your father lose mental capacity you need a specific date you need someone in authority to state this so GP / care home manager / social services ( all three would be brilliant! But just the GP is needed)
If the money taken out was after this date then I would assume you’ve got an excellent case !
If the money was taken out before mental capacity was lost then this family member could come up with any story to justify why the money was given to them I’m afraid.
Also will your fathers assets mean you’ve got to go to probate ? If so any large amounts given as gifts in the last 7 years will have to be included in the estate for inheritance tax.
I would suggest you contact a solicitor and talk through your options.
Thank you, waiting to hear what police say, I have a fair whack of evidence. DoLs in place several years before POA given but TP advised benefits before Dad went into care home that he had dementia and GP confirmed it in writing. Also have evidence from neighbours that Dad was concerned about TP. But no-one told me!
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
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A little interesting update, TP advised the local authority Dad had dementia which they had confirmed by the GP and a couple of days later TP then contacted Dads Will company and tried to made an appt for Dad to get the Will changed. This is whilst TP was helping themselves to Dads money. Its getting interesting....!
 

MarieD

Registered User
Dec 26, 2021
110
0
Omg !!! Some people are just so brazen aren’t they. How could you live with yourself after doing this. Shocking
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
Omg !!! Some people are just so brazen aren’t they. How could you live with yourself after doing this. Shocking
It is shocking, but all the more shocking is that TP has an answer for everything and no one seems to want to listen to me. Some departments that are meant to protect TP are now refusing to give certain info due to GDPR, so I have no choice but to go ahead with Police interview without half the proof I need but content its available from the relevant departments for the Police.....but basically I am being asked to blow my family apart in the hope that the evidence I believe is there, is actually there. Its scary, I can tell you.
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
Hi sorry to hear this has happened
I can offer advice from experience and you need to get evidence from your fathers GP about his dementia. When was he diagnosed when did he lose mental capacity etc, also evidence from social services and his care home.Having the Dolls information is great ask the care home for copies of their reports.
The police will investigate because it is classed as fraud but they won’t take it to court unless they have enough evidence, and the crucial thing is you need to prove without doubt that your father was in no fit state to apply for the LPA and also his mental state before the LPA was issued when large amounts were spent.
The OPG will only investigate money spent since the POA was registered ( but I use the word investigate loosely)

My case against my brother has been going on now for over two years I’m not sure I’ll ever get justice for what he’s done. However I spotted what was happening pretty early so he didn’t take anywhere near as much as this.
I hope it all works out for you it’s so frustrating the injustice of it all.
Woohoo, got a copy of a discharge notification from hospital, dated 2 years before LPA which says Lack of Capacity!
 

MarieD

Registered User
Dec 26, 2021
110
0
But TP has a nice big house and a nice fat shiny car.

My family dynamics are complicated and I'm staying hazy as knowing what is going on, TP may be turning to help forums like me. But as I was looking after Mum and TP was looking after Dad at other side of country, TP was pkaced on carehome paperwork as next of kin for practical reasons and emergencies as I was too far away to respond quickly to emergencies. But the Executorship and easily evidenced financial abuse seem to trump that in most areas.

But care home are providing me with reports as are social services. And Dads neighbours are being very supportive of me! Never seen a DoLs so thanks for the info and I will scrutinise this carefully when I get the copy.


Got to say that I am a strong person and this has me on my knees. TP has gone on attack and is basically trying to insinuate others have helped themselves to the money. Given TP admits TP had the card, to draw money out for care home fees when TP never actually paid more than a couple of months...good luck with making that one stick mate. Plus ordering stuff on Dads card for home delivery gives the police a lot to go on lol! Talking grocery shops, Next, Ikea, and also used it to pay for paypal too - all easily traceable by police.


They can check me out too because I have nothing to hide. One week in April when TP helped themselves to £1000 in cash over several days, I was 300 miles away on holiday. Similar thing in Feb, I was participating in a 24hr charity event with 40 other people and it was live streamed so no way it was me. But then TP will claim it was my husband or the neighbours and so it gets nasty.... TP has already started the ground work for this. But hey we haven't done it so WE have nothing to fear.

But having said all of this, its my word against TP that Dad didn't voluntarily give TP the card and say "go spend - I want you to have it', and Police prosecutions require a higher level of evidence than civil cases so who knows if they will help.


The local authority who aren't going to get their care home fees maybe interested though... And TP has a house to go after!


My inheritance has gone due to care home fees, I always knew that would be the case but I didn't expect to have to pay £300 a month to keep Dads house connected and insured whilst it sells (sale value all gone in equity release) because TP snaffled all the cash and left unpaid bills.

I never drempt it would play out like this and Dad would be devastated at this turn of events.
I had similar issues money spent on groceries and large cash amounts taken out however the OPG just listened to my brothers reasons and saw no wrong in what he’d done. My mum was in a care home unable to communicate with anyone due to her advanced dementia so could not agree to any of the money that was spent. I’m just so lucky I stopped it when I did or he’d of taken everything had I not registered the POA forms at her banks.
He was very smart though he almost emptied her accounts before the POA was issued so it’s just been almost impossible to prove that my mum didn’t gift him all the money.
Woohoo, got a copy of a discharge notification from hospital, dated 2 years before LPA which says Lack of Capacity!
wow ! Great news
 

MarieD

Registered User
Dec 26, 2021
110
0
It is shocking, but all the more shocking is that TP has an answer for everything and no one seems to want to listen to me. Some departments that are meant to protect TP are now refusing to give certain info due to GDPR, so I have no choice but to go ahead with Police interview without half the proof I need but content its available from the relevant departments for the Police.....but basically I am being asked to blow my family apart in the hope that the evidence I believe is there, is actually there. It’s scary, I can tell you.
Yes I had same situation and my ordeal happen at the height of covid it was as if I was banging my head against a brick wall. So many mistakes made as well and missing documents. It sounds as if you’re getting somewhere though with good luck with it all.
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
Update.....I complained to bank and said they should have picked up the significant change in spending on the account as part of their safeguarding duties. They refuted this on the grounds that TP had not registered the LPA with them and so they were not aware Dad was a vulnerable person and TP only needed to claim Dad had told him to to spend the money and it was my word against TP. I have gone to the Ombudsman on this as the FCA say that banks have a safeguarding responsibility for vulnerable persons (even if they didn't know he had dementia, they knew Dads grand old age) and that this duty cannot just rely on reports received by family, but they must be proactive in spotting significant changes. Watch this space!

However Dad had given a letter of authority to his GP years ago to say I could have access to his medical records and so post death, that combined with my Executorship meant they sent me info which showed exactly when Dad was diagnosed with Dementia and it records that TP was notified as next of kin and it was after this TP started spending The GP's records also show that TP was advised at the time Dad went into the care home that he had lost his mental capacity. This means two things, TP cannot say he did not know the severity of the dementia, and he certainly knew when dad went into the care home that Dad did not have his mental capacity yet TP continued to spend Dads money and it was a couple of years later that TP subsequently got the LPA.

Also in checking how the monies were spent on the bank statements, PayPal/Amazon were used a lot and it transpires TP's partner was also spending Dads money.

In applying for Probate the question was asked if TP was aware of anyone having received any gifts in the last 7 years from Dad, including him and the answer (in writing) was no! If TP had helped himself to all this money from Dads bank account and he was saying he hadn't been gifted any monies, then he needs to prove the monies he spend were for Dad...this will be interesting.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I reported it to the Police, they investigated and after 6 weeks of enquiries, they arrested TP. TP confirmed he was responsible for Dads finances, did not state that Dad had told him he could spend the money and as he had already stated in writing for the Probate that he had not been gifted monies (or payments in kind), he now has to explain what he did with the money and why this was for Dads benefit...going to be tricky pre the LPA as I struggle to remember what I bought on PayPal last month let alone 4 years ago. Police in the meantime are also looking at the partner but TP does not know this, and I have strong reason to believe that someone else in TPs family are involved..

Being arrested is one thing, being charged is another...its not a done deal yet. However.... as he didn't say that he had Dads permission to spend the money, which is why the bank had declined to investigate my claim, I have gone back to the bank to see what their excuse is now??? I'm thinking here that if they have to repatriate some of Dads money to his account, then THEY may take legal action against TP to recover the monies.

I went to my local MP for assistance pre arrest and she was a complete waste of space. I made it clear that if I couldn't get the money back, the loophole with regard to LPA's needed to be closed to prevent this happening to others and she just was not interested. The Police checked with the OPG that they had no responsibility to ensure the validity of the LPA upon application and the Police Officer was also stunned that there was no recourse if the doner(Dad) has since died. Apparently if the issue is discovered prior to death they can help, just not post death.

When this is all over and I know the true picture, I aim to start a campaign to get this addressed.
 

MarieD

Registered User
Dec 26, 2021
110
0
Update.....I complained to bank and said they should have picked up the significant change in spending on the account as part of their safeguarding duties. They refuted this on the grounds that TP had not registered the LPA with them and so they were not aware Dad was a vulnerable person and TP only needed to claim Dad had told him to to spend the money and it was my word against TP. I have gone to the Ombudsman on this as the FCA say that banks have a safeguarding responsibility for vulnerable persons (even if they didn't know he had dementia, they knew Dads grand old age) and that this duty cannot just rely on reports received by family, but they must be proactive in spotting significant changes. Watch this space!

However Dad had given a letter of authority to his GP years ago to say I could have access to his medical records and so post death, that combined with my Executorship meant they sent me info which showed exactly when Dad was diagnosed with Dementia and it records that TP was notified as next of kin and it was after this TP started spending The GP's records also show that TP was advised at the time Dad went into the care home that he had lost his mental capacity. This means two things, TP cannot say he did not know the severity of the dementia, and he certainly knew when dad went into the care home that Dad did not have his mental capacity yet TP continued to spend Dads money and it was a couple of years later that TP subsequently got the LPA.

Also in checking how the monies were spent on the bank statements, PayPal/Amazon were used a lot and it transpires TP's partner was also spending Dads money.

In applying for Probate the question was asked if TP was aware of anyone having received any gifts in the last 7 years from Dad, including him and the answer (in writing) was no! If TP had helped himself to all this money from Dads bank account and he was saying he hadn't been gifted any monies, then he needs to prove the monies he spend were for Dad...this will be interesting.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I reported it to the Police, they investigated and after 6 weeks of enquiries, they arrested TP. TP confirmed he was responsible for Dads finances, did not state that Dad had told him he could spend the money and as he had already stated in writing for the Probate that he had not been gifted monies (or payments in kind), he now has to explain what he did with the money and why this was for Dads benefit...going to be tricky pre the LPA as I struggle to remember what I bought on PayPal last month let alone 4 years ago. Police in the meantime are also looking at the partner but TP does not know this, and I have strong reason to believe that someone else in TPs family are involved..

Being arrested is one thing, being charged is another...its not a done deal yet. However.... as he didn't say that he had Dads permission to spend the money, which is why the bank had declined to investigate my claim, I have gone back to the bank to see what their excuse is now??? I'm thinking here that if they have to repatriate some of Dads money to his account, then THEY may take legal action against TP to recover the monies.

I went to my local MP for assistance pre arrest and she was a complete waste of space. I made it clear that if I couldn't get the money back, the loophole with regard to LPA's needed to be closed to prevent this happening to others and she just was not interested. The Police checked with the OPG that they had no responsibility to ensure the validity of the LPA upon application and the Police Officer was also stunned that there was no recourse if the doner(Dad) has since died. Apparently if the issue is discovered prior to death they can help, just not post death.

When this is all over and I know the true picture, I aim to start a campaign to get this addressed.
Wow all sounds promising hope you get somewhere with the case. The LPA does end on death I’m afraid, however my understanding is they’d of just referred it to the police anyway. Is TP a beneficiary in the will ? If he is and he’s charged I think you can hold back the money taken from his share.

I agree with you banks really should put more in place to safe guard the elderly. My brother just got my mum to sign a request no one actually spoke to her, the fact that she was transferring all her savings into one persons account should have rung alarm bells.
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
Wow all sounds promising hope you get somewhere with the case. The LPA does end on death I’m afraid, however my understanding is they’d of just referred it to the police anyway. Is TP a beneficiary in the will ? If he is and he’s charged I think you can hold back the money taken from his share.

I agree with you banks really should put more in place to safe guard the elderly. My brother just got my mum to sign a request no one actually spoke to her, the fact that she was transferring all her savings into one persons account should have rung alarm bells.
Thank you but sadly when I reported it to the OPG with all the same evidence I later gave the Police, they explained that the LPA ceased upon death - which I knew, but so did any powers they had to act, even retrospectively. This is so wrong and this is what needs to change. If an LPA is taken out falsley, without complying with stated rules, the OPG should be able to act retrospectively, wheter the doner is alive or not, in my opinion.

But banks have safeguarding rules that they should follow and I'm hoping the financial ombudsman upholds my complaint, if indeed the bank themselves don't do a u turn now they know of the arrest.
 

Kapow

Registered User
Nov 17, 2019
161
0
Yes I have and an appointment has been made for me to make a statement but it has been suggested by a knowledgeable third party that they will perceive this as a civil matter.

I think along the same lines as you so what has been unfolding has shocked me.

However if the LPA is legal then TP has a responsibility to act in the best interests of my Dad and that can't be going into unauthorised overdrafts, not paying care home fees and not maintaining his house!

I'm just really confused about how they got an LPA but I am being told by others that its quite common for people in dementia care homes to arrange LPA's as they don't need to understand the finances themselves but may have the capacity and understanding to say who they want to deal with it.
How can the LPA be legal when your Dad didn't have capacity to understand what he signed? Do you know if the LPA was witnessed and who by? Was it done through a solicitor?
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,704
0
Bury
How can the LPA be legal when your Dad didn't have capacity to understand what he signed?
The capacity needed is to fully understand the LPA and its implications at the time of signing, being unable to draw a clock face or count backwards in sevens from 100 doesn't matter.

The decision is up to the certificate provider, if they have recorded the questions they asked the prospective donor and the responses, and the questions and answers are in line with the mental health act, it can be very difficult to prove incapacity.
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
The LPA was not done by a solicitor, it was created on kine via the OPG website, printed off by TP and witnessed by a friend of TP, someone who had not seen the doner (Dad) for 30yrs. I haven't been able to confirm whether the witness attended the carehome to witness the LPA and ask questions or if they just signed it without sight of him. Nothing can be done about this as the OPGs powers cease upon death of the Doner (my Dad).

One of the originating reasons for Dads Dementia diagnosis was his difficulties with money, his loss of ability to deal with financial/numerical matters appropriately and for giving his card to inappropriate persons and he had been officially diagnosed as having lacked mental capacity 2.5 years before the LPA was ratified and the a Dols was presented to the local authority on three occasions.
 

mancity

Registered User
Mar 12, 2024
10
0
Update.....I complained to bank and said they should have picked up the significant change in spending on the account as part of their safeguarding duties. They refuted this on the grounds that TP had not registered the LPA with them and so they were not aware Dad was a vulnerable person and TP only needed to claim Dad had told him to to spend the money and it was my word against TP. I have gone to the Ombudsman on this as the FCA say that banks have a safeguarding responsibility for vulnerable persons (even if they didn't know he had dementia, they knew Dads grand old age) and that this duty cannot just rely on reports received by family, but they must be proactive in spotting significant changes. Watch this space!

However Dad had given a letter of authority to his GP years ago to say I could have access to his medical records and so post death, that combined with my Executorship meant they sent me info which showed exactly when Dad was diagnosed with Dementia and it records that TP was notified as next of kin and it was after this TP started spending The GP's records also show that TP was advised at the time Dad went into the care home that he had lost his mental capacity. This means two things, TP cannot say he did not know the severity of the dementia, and he certainly knew when dad went into the care home that Dad did not have his mental capacity yet TP continued to spend Dads money and it was a couple of years later that TP subsequently got the LPA.

Also in checking how the monies were spent on the bank statements, PayPal/Amazon were used a lot and it transpires TP's partner was also spending Dads money.

In applying for Probate the question was asked if TP was aware of anyone having received any gifts in the last 7 years from Dad, including him and the answer (in writing) was no! If TP had helped himself to all this money from Dads bank account and he was saying he hadn't been gifted any monies, then he needs to prove the monies he spend were for Dad...this will be interesting.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I reported it to the Police, they investigated and after 6 weeks of enquiries, they arrested TP. TP confirmed he was responsible for Dads finances, did not state that Dad had told him he could spend the money and as he had already stated in writing for the Probate that he had not been gifted monies (or payments in kind), he now has to explain what he did with the money and why this was for Dads benefit...going to be tricky pre the LPA as I struggle to remember what I bought on PayPal last month let alone 4 years ago. Police in the meantime are also looking at the partner but TP does not know this, and I have strong reason to believe that someone else in TPs family are involved..

Being arrested is one thing, being charged is another...its not a done deal yet. However.... as he didn't say that he had Dads permission to spend the money, which is why the bank had declined to investigate my claim, I have gone back to the bank to see what their excuse is now??? I'm thinking here that if they have to repatriate some of Dads money to his account, then THEY may take legal action against TP to recover the monies.

I went to my local MP for assistance pre arrest and she was a complete waste of space. I made it clear that if I couldn't get the money back, the loophole with regard to LPA's needed to be closed to prevent this happening to others and she just was not interested. The Police checked with the OPG that they had no responsibility to ensure the validity of the LPA upon application and the Police Officer was also stunned that there was no recourse if the doner(Dad) has since died. Apparently if the issue is discovered prior to death they can help, just not post death.

When this is all over and I know the true picture, I aim to start a campaign to get this addressed
 

mancity

Registered User
Mar 12, 2024
10
0
Did you ever get closure I'm with you the system is wrong it's open to abuse and I'll join your campaign. There should be justice for vulnerable people
 

Honeymonster

Registered User
Jul 4, 2023
23
0
Its a long slow process, police are only now just asking the CPS for guidance on charging. But the good news is that we now have another couple of recourses which we can't follow up until the police have decided which way they go. The point is the culprit thinks, that if the Police don't charge, they get away with it scot free when in actual fact, that could actually be the making of the situation.

Apologies, I can't say more now but I will report back when I can. Karma is a wonderful thing.
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
7,106
0
Salford
Thank you just for keeping posting, let's hope justice will be done. That an justice will be done, Karma or in this life. K