GP Dementia Clinic Review Tick Box Exercise?

SandyI

Registered User
Mar 27, 2023
13
0
Just took my Mum who has Alzheimer’s to an annual dementia review. The last one was nearly two years ago, but I appreciate the pressure GP surgeries are under. That being said, I couldn’t really see the value of it in my mum’s case and would be interested to hear of other experiences.

When we arrived, I explained that I was her daughter and had LPA for health. Also, before the appointment I had a nurse ring me to confirm the apointment and I explained that my mum would struggle to understand any questions she was asked and communicate answers.

The assessment comprised of a very lovely nurse filling in a form on the computer. The appointment was for 45 mins and we were in there for 35. Questions were directed at my Mum that she did not understand and could not answer, for example, Has your memory got worse? The nurse was reluctant to recognise any discrete input from me.

Despite me explaining that Mum was in A&E last week with a suspected hip fracture after a fall and uses a walker (when she remembers) due to muscle atrophy in her leg diagnosed after a number of falls, the nurse came to the conclusion she was no longer a high risk for falls. I told her I disagree. I’m not sure of the implications of putting this on the form, but it did seem strange to me that she was keen to put her as a low risk level. I spoke to the Manager of the retirement home where she lives, who was very surprised. Their assessment has her as a high risk for falls.

I was horrified when the nurse asked my Mum who clearly does not have capacity to consider adding DNR to her record. She backed off when I stepped in and explained my Mum did not understand the question.. Whilst I agree, in some cases that DNR is an appropriate discussion, my concern is whether this decision should be directed at someone who does not have capacity and understand what is being said to them.

With no positive outcomes or advice from the appointment, I felt that the exercise was merely to fill in a form to satisfy the annual dementia review, and the time could have been better served all round. Has anyone had a more positive experience?

Apologies, rant over.
 

AutumnRigby

Registered User
Jun 10, 2023
45
0
Hi there
I took my mum to what was called a dementia review earlier this year. After 15 minutes, a chat about general health , mum telling the doctor how busy and social she is it was all over.
I was surprised that there wasn't a repeat of even the little.memory.test they did prior to diagnosis to chart difference.
How can they review when they don't ask relevant questions. Mum isn't too bad but because the appointment was so rubbish the doctor couldn't ascertain anything about what has changed.
I appreciate that sufferers have rights and capacity but surely in dementia when it is well documented that sufferers "host" that family and carers should have input and that doctors have a duty of care to listen and take this info into account.
Yes, there are people out there who use this sort of situation to manipulated.the PWD but the majority of us are just trying our best to help our loved ones.
Thank you for listening
 

maisiecat

Registered User
Oct 12, 2023
421
0
The GP practise gets paid for these reviews and paid well. It is the same for all the other reviews people are called in for. This is factual as I worked in a GP surgery as a Nurse running these systems.
I assume this year its the pharmacy that is receiving money for covid vaccines.
The sad thing is the reviews could be really useful and a proactive way of managing dementia progression.
Perhaps the Alzheimers society could raise this as an issue?
The DNR issue is also very concerning. Our first tribe was the Parkinsons tribe before we subsequently also joined the dementia tribe. It was not unusual for people with Parkinsons to be phoned at home about DNR.
Many people felt distressed and hectored about it. It was different for my husband as he did all the details when he was in hospital with one of these deadly food poisoning. When he was admitted last year they had lost all of it.
The trouble with DNR is it can also be used as Do Not Treat and there have been people refused ambulances etc.
In my day ,donkey years ago, recussitation was only ever undertaken if an arrest was ever a witnessed event. My husband was in hospital for 3 months and I never felt they were near their patients to witness any events.
They would have been great on computer malfunction though....
 

Tabitha2

Registered User
Sep 17, 2022
15
0
My father and partner had dementia, and my father has, to my knowledge, never had a review following his diagnosis, despite being on medication. My partner was asked to attend the Memory Clinic several times and on each occasion the same questions were asked again and again, each time by different people, and appointments were postponed and cancelled so many times that in the end he refused to go any more. They did seem like box ticking exercises, and could only tell us things were getting worse, which we, as carers, know only too well, so it did seem like a complete waste of time. At no point was I spoken to regarding his symptoms, and when I tried to "correct" his answers I was shushed and ignored, even though his appointment letters requested he be accompanied by a relative or friend. I am amazed (well not any more actually) that the medical profession in general seems to be so uninterested in listening to the people who know the PWD better than anyone. When my partner was in hospital I had to repeatedly tell nurses and doctors that he had dementia, but most seemed to not really be interested in this fact, they were only focused on sorting out his medical condition and getting him discharged ASAP, but dementia can play a major role in how patients respond to taking medication, physio, etc., so it is important that they are looked at as a whole, rather than someone with a specific, isolated medical problem.

On the subject of DNR, both my parents and my partner had RESPECT forms completed for them while they were in hospital. In my opinion, none of them had capacity to understand what they were all about, and at no time was any member of the family consulted about them or even informed that they had been completed until they were discharged with them. I queried my partner's RESPECT form on every occasion he was re-admitted to hospital since I was concerned he would have had no idea what it was all about and it also contained incorrect medical details. I wanted to know who had completed it and how they had decided he had mental capacity to understand it. I was basically fobbed off with "O we can change that" or "You can talk to your GP (aaargh!) about it". I did eventually get the incorrect medical details crossed out, but the form did in fact come into play at the end of his life, and whilst nothing on it would have made any major difference to the way things panned out, I believe it did cause a certain amount of unnecessary uncertainty and anxiety on my part.

I think this is a really important area which needs looking into - who completes these forms - what qualifications do they have to make decisions regarding mental capacity - should relatives be informed or consulted - are they updated following changes in health, etc. I would like to know where I can go to get more information regarding this whole area. And I also think there is a certain amount of misunderstanding regarding just what "power" LPA for health bestows on the attorney. Personally, I didn't/don't have it for my loved ones, and I'm not sure it would have made a difference regarding my partner - in the end I think the medics make the final judgements regardless of LPA, and they are, after all, the experts and have the knowledge, but we need to be able to feel that we trust them to do the right thing which requires timely and accurate communication with carers/relatives on all occasions.
 

maisiecat

Registered User
Oct 12, 2023
421
0
Hi @Tabitha2, I am sorry to read your story but I am afraid its a common one. I also don't have a POA for health and welfare for my husband just legal and financial. When we did our LPA they were just changing from the previous system and our solicitor felt next of kin was sufficient for medical decisions.
I also find sometimes I'm in the loop and sometimes out. My husband is in a Nursing home now but I don't believe he would have been if we had been able to get timely treatment. I would like to say I am never out of the loop when anyone wants money!
I think DNR/ Respect forms do need to be looked at in terms of who asks the elderly to sign them, when and why. Is it a form of rationing of care. I also question about capacity as my husband was being asked to consent to procedures despite having 2 types of dementia.
 

SherwoodSue

Registered User
Jun 18, 2022
715
0
This thread propped up at an interesting time for me as we are going soon to ours, first one ever.

I suppose it could be a useful time to review just how far the dementia has progressed and just what the next chapter might bring. I think this could be very helpful to the carer but in our case simply depressing for the PWD. Would I want to be reminded of what I had lost as what was to come?

So I have decided to hold my cards closer to my chest. To think that it is only being done because the government ask them to and pay them to. In going we will swell the funds of mums GP service and I have no problem with that, ever little helps and mum likes an outing !

I am not expecting to get anything concrete out of the exercise.

I would be the first to cry foul when folks like me get an annual diabetic review and there wasn’t anything for PWD tho.
 

northumbrian_k

Volunteer Host
Mar 2, 2017
4,736
0
Newcastle
My wife was never seen by her GP (in relation to dementia) after the initial referral to the memory clinic. When we went for other reasons her doctors were always amenable to me accompanying her and speaking for her when she was unable to explain. She moved into her care home not long before all the partners at the practice resigned. She is registered with a practice near the care home now and is seen by a doctor about once a month. That's not to review her dementia - a pointless exercise - but to check her physical health. Her DNR was arranged by me (acting as Attorney for health and welfare) in consultation with the practice nurse. I also agreed an emergency care plan with her care home, which states that referral to hospital should be avoided. The annual review of her Deprivation of Liberty Safeguarding Authorisation gives the clearest statement of how her advanced presentation of Alzheimer's Disease continues to diminish her cognitive and physical abilities.
 
Last edited:

northumbrian_k

Volunteer Host
Mar 2, 2017
4,736
0
Newcastle
@maisiecat That sounds like a solicitor who didn't know that 'next of kin' is both lacking a proper definition and has no legal status. If a person is competent to act as Donor for Lasting Power of Attorney, it is sensible to do this for both finance & property and health & welfare.
 

SandyI

Registered User
Mar 27, 2023
13
0
Hi there
I took my mum to what was called a dementia review earlier this year. After 15 minutes, a chat about general health , mum telling the doctor how busy and social she is it was all over.
I was surprised that there wasn't a repeat of even the little.memory.test they did prior to diagnosis to chart difference.
How can they review when they don't ask relevant questions. Mum isn't too bad but because the appointment was so rubbish the doctor couldn't ascertain anything about what has changed.
I appreciate that sufferers have rights and capacity but surely in dementia when it is well documented that sufferers "host" that family and carers should have input and that doctors have a duty of care to listen and take this info into account.
Yes, there are people out there who use this sort of situation to manipulated.the PWD but the majority of us are just trying our best to help our loved ones.
Thank you for listening
This was exactly my takeaway from the appointment. The questions were irrelevant to any continuing GP care plan (which doesn't seem to exist) and as the carer I felt like I was a spare part. Like you I am surprised that there is no measure as to the progress of the dementia, and there seems to be no mechanism to ascertain whether the dementia medication is the best for the patient, or if there would be any benefit to switching to an alternative.
 

SandyI

Registered User
Mar 27, 2023
13
0
The GP practise gets paid for these reviews and paid well. It is the same for all the other reviews people are called in for. This is factual as I worked in a GP surgery as a Nurse running these systems.
I assume this year its the pharmacy that is receiving money for covid vaccines.
The sad thing is the reviews could be really useful and a proactive way of managing dementia progression.
Perhaps the Alzheimers society could raise this as an issue?
The DNR issue is also very concerning. Our first tribe was the Parkinsons tribe before we subsequently also joined the dementia tribe. It was not unusual for people with Parkinsons to be phoned at home about DNR.
Many people felt distressed and hectored about it. It was different for my husband as he did all the details when he was in hospital with one of these deadly food poisoning. When he was admitted last year they had lost all of it.
The trouble with DNR is it can also be used as Do Not Treat and there have been people refused ambulances etc.
In my day ,donkey years ago, recussitation was only ever undertaken if an arrest was ever a witnessed event. My husband was in hospital for 3 months and I never felt they were near their patients to witness any events.
They would have been great on computer malfunction though....
I did wonder if there was a financial aspect to carrying out these reviews. I would not have an issue with this if the reviews added some value for the patient. I agree that these reviews could be really useful and it would be interesting to know if the GP surgery sets the format, or if there is some kind of standard they follow.

My mum had two hospital admissions last year, and I have no idea if they discussed DNR with her.
 

SandyI

Registered User
Mar 27, 2023
13
0
My father and partner had dementia, and my father has, to my knowledge, never had a review following his diagnosis, despite being on medication. My partner was asked to attend the Memory Clinic several times and on each occasion the same questions were asked again and again, each time by different people, and appointments were postponed and cancelled so many times that in the end he refused to go any more. They did seem like box ticking exercises, and could only tell us things were getting worse, which we, as carers, know only too well, so it did seem like a complete waste of time. At no point was I spoken to regarding his symptoms, and when I tried to "correct" his answers I was shushed and ignored, even though his appointment letters requested he be accompanied by a relative or friend. I am amazed (well not any more actually) that the medical profession in general seems to be so uninterested in listening to the people who know the PWD better than anyone. When my partner was in hospital I had to repeatedly tell nurses and doctors that he had dementia, but most seemed to not really be interested in this fact, they were only focused on sorting out his medical condition and getting him discharged ASAP, but dementia can play a major role in how patients respond to taking medication, physio, etc., so it is important that they are looked at as a whole, rather than someone with a specific, isolated medical problem.

On the subject of DNR, both my parents and my partner had RESPECT forms completed for them while they were in hospital. In my opinion, none of them had capacity to understand what they were all about, and at no time was any member of the family consulted about them or even informed that they had been completed until they were discharged with them. I queried my partner's RESPECT form on every occasion he was re-admitted to hospital since I was concerned he would have had no idea what it was all about and it also contained incorrect medical details. I wanted to know who had completed it and how they had decided he had mental capacity to understand it. I was basically fobbed off with "O we can change that" or "You can talk to your GP (aaargh!) about it". I did eventually get the incorrect medical details crossed out, but the form did in fact come into play at the end of his life, and whilst nothing on it would have made any major difference to the way things panned out, I believe it did cause a certain amount of unnecessary uncertainty and anxiety on my part.

I think this is a really important area which needs looking into - who completes these forms - what qualifications do they have to make decisions regarding mental capacity - should relatives be informed or consulted - are they updated following changes in health, etc. I would like to know where I can go to get more information regarding this whole area. And I also think there is a certain amount of misunderstanding regarding just what "power" LPA for health bestows on the attorney. Personally, I didn't/don't have it for my loved ones, and I'm not sure it would have made a difference regarding my partner - in the end I think the medics make the final judgements regardless of LPA, and they are, after all, the experts and have the knowledge, but we need to be able to feel that we trust them to do the right thing which requires timely and accurate communication with carers/relatives on all occasions.
So sorry to hear that both your partner and father had dementia.

In my many dealings with the medical profession as carer for my mum, it has been the exception, not the rule that I have been treated with any respect as her carer.

I think the points you make in your final paragraph are spot on.
 

SandyI

Registered User
Mar 27, 2023
13
0
This thread propped up at an interesting time for me as we are going soon to ours, first one ever.

I suppose it could be a useful time to review just how far the dementia has progressed and just what the next chapter might bring. I think this could be very helpful to the carer but in our case simply depressing for the PWD. Would I want to be reminded of what I had lost as what was to come?

So I have decided to hold my cards closer to my chest. To think that it is only being done because the government ask them to and pay them to. In going we will swell the funds of mums GP service and I have no problem with that, ever little helps and mum likes an outing !

I am not expecting to get anything concrete out of the exercise.

I would be the first to cry foul when folks like me get an annual diabetic review and there wasn’t anything for PWD tho.
In the absence of any other support or follow-ups, I think an annual dementia review is a good idea. In an NHS where funds and resources are so short, I hope your visit is different to the experiences posted on this thread and has some benefit for you or your mum. It would be interesting to hear if they have a better format. Good luck and I hope it goes well.
 

SherwoodSue

Registered User
Jun 18, 2022
715
0
In the absence of any other support or follow-ups, I think an annual dementia review is a good idea. In an NHS where funds and resources are so short, I hope your visit is different to the experiences posted on this thread and has some benefit for you or your mum. It would be interesting to hear if they have a better format. Good luck and I hope it goes well.
Thank you Sandyl
 

albo

Registered User
Jan 24, 2024
30
0
Hi @Tabitha2, I am sorry to read your story but I am afraid its a common one. I also don't have a POA for health and welfare for my husband just legal and financial. When we did our LPA they were just changing from the previous system and our solicitor felt next of kin was sufficient for medical decisions.
I also find sometimes I'm in the loop and sometimes out. My husband is in a Nursing home now but I don't believe he would have been if we had been able to get timely treatment. I would like to say I am never out of the loop when anyone wants money!
I think DNR/ Respect forms do need to be looked at in terms of who asks the elderly to sign them, when and why. Is it a form of rationing of care. I also question about capacity as my husband was being asked to consent to procedures despite having 2 types of dementia.
When we visited the solicitor to set up LPA's years ago we too were told that the property and personal affairs one was sufficient and not to bother with the health LPA. Things have been ok so far but it does annoy me that we were given that advice at the time.
 

Ellie2018

Registered User
Jun 26, 2023
259
0
My GP practice is fab, we have an annual review, although I’d argue it’s that regular. They include blood pressure, cholesterol etc so it’s a general health review too. I went in first saying it was my check first and told the nurse he wasn’t sitting there whilst being asked questions he couldn’t remember the outcome to. Luckily she agreed and went through everything with me and then got hubby in to do the general checks. The benefit for us is that if we need anything they are on board. I am also lucky that the GP speaks to me about my husband even if he isn’t there. So they upped his mitrazapine and added some extra prostate ones without even seeing him as the saw him at the beginning. I recognise how lucky I am, they are so supportive.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,702
0
Bury
When we did our LPA they were just changing from the previous system and our solicitor felt next of kin was sufficient for medical decisions
Assuming the change was from EPA to LPA that is understandable.
EPA was for finance only and had been in use for 21 years, 1986 to 2007, with few problems.

Since 2007 everything has become formalised and the H&W LPA has become well used and can be essential in cases of contention.
 

maisiecat

Registered User
Oct 12, 2023
421
0
Assuming the change was from EPA to LPA that is understandable.
EPA was for finance only and had been in use for 21 years, 1986 to 2007, with few problems.

Since 2007 everything has become formalised and the H&W LPA has become well used and can be essential in cases of contention.
Hi @nitram , yes we did our LPA about 2009 and I don't think the sloicitor misled us it was just assumed that there wouldn't be a problem.
Luckily I am not in contention with anyone but I am always slightly amused that the position is altered as suits them at that moment.
 

maisiecat

Registered User
Oct 12, 2023
421
0
My GP practice is fab, we have an annual review, although I’d argue it’s that regular. They include blood pressure, cholesterol etc so it’s a general health review too. I went in first saying it was my check first and told the nurse he wasn’t sitting there whilst being asked questions he couldn’t remember the outcome to. Luckily she agreed and went through everything with me and then got hubby in to do the general checks. The benefit for us is that if we need anything they are on board. I am also lucky that the GP speaks to me about my husband even if he isn’t there. So they upped his mitrazapine and added some extra prostate ones without even seeing him as the saw him at the beginning. I recognise how lucky I am, they are so supportive.
Hi @Ellie2018, I am so pleased that the review is beneficial and I think it is easy for a GP practice to make it of mutual benefit. It can be a very non threatening way to get the PWD to the GP as most of us "oldies" are on some list or other for review.
Also it could prevent some of the crisis interventions and hospital admissions.
 

maisiecat

Registered User
Oct 12, 2023
421
0
I did wonder if there was a financial aspect to carrying out these reviews. I would not have an issue with this if the reviews added some value for the patient. I agree that these reviews could be really useful and it would be interesting to know if the GP surgery sets the format, or if there is some kind of standard they follow.

My mum had two hospital admissions last year, and I have no idea if they discussed DNR with her.
Personally I think if a DNR or Respect form is filled in on a PWD it should be mandatory for Next of kin to be informed.
 

maisiecat

Registered User
Oct 12, 2023
421
0
@maisiecat That sounds like a solicitor who didn't know that 'next of kin' is both lacking a proper definition and has no legal status. If a person is competent to act as Donor for Lasting Power of Attorney, it is sensible to do this for both finance & property and health & welfare.
Hi @northumbrian_k , I think we did ours in the very early changeover from the EPA which covered everything. I think that solicitors now would give very different advice as there is much more formality around these processes.
My husband no longer has capacity so nothing to be done now. Interestingly when I did his Respect form (he had done it the previous year but it hadn't got filed) I was asked to inform all family members of its existence and his wishes.