Going into care home without consent?

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by Grandaughter 1, Oct 14, 2006.

  1. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    Hello all,

    I haven't been on here for a while so please forgive me.

    I was hoping for some advice from you lovely people.

    My Nan is getting to the end of her tether looking after Grandad. She is really struggling to cope and we are getting really worried about her health. She is getting virtually no sleep as Grandad is very restless and wanders at night and during the day she is constantly cleaning up after him.

    The problem is that my Grandad is very stubborn. We managed to get him to do 2weeks of respite with a lot lof trickery on our part. He now refuses point blank to go back and he won't entertain day care either.

    Whenever a social worker, carer, or assessor visits he gets very aggitated and 70% of the time he shouts at them to go away.

    My Nan is at breaking point and want's him to go into a home.

    Can we do this if he is refusing? We're all really concerned about Nan's health as she is has a hole in her heart and is on Warfarin.

    Has anyone been in the same situation?

    Thank you

    Louise x
  2. twink

    twink Registered User

    Oct 28, 2005
    Cambridgeshire UK

    Sorry to hear about your Nan and Grandad Louise.

    All I can tell you is that I was told my husband Steve needed to go into hospital for a minimum of 4 weeks to be assessed and then I had a meeting with the psychiatrist a few days ago and he told me Steve is severely demented and won't be able to come home, he will have to go into a home. The matter has been taken out of my hands. I am fine with that, he's only 56 and a strong man, I couldn't have coped with him.

    I don't suppose that was much help but it's what has happened to us.

    Sue x
  3. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    Dear Louise.....I really don`t know what to suggest, but had to respond as you sound so down. From my experience, you can`t force someone to go into a home, against their will, unless they have been sectioned.

    Your Grandad doesn`t yet sound ready for sectioning, he sounds like an angry man, who feels the world is putting him down, and he`s fighting to cling to his independence.

    Your Nan, however is the one at risk here. If she becomes unable to cope, what happens to Granddad? Could you or someone in your family see Nan`s GP or Grandad`s SW, without bringing them into the house, to discuss what help can be given to Nan, and if there`s a way round the problem.

    Good Luck Sylvia
  4. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    Thanks for your replies Sylvia and Sue.

    The thing is we feel we are banging our head against the wall with all the professionals. The CPN is semi-retired and has cancelled the last 3 appointments with Nan due to stupid things like his car breaking down. When he does visit he just sits there with a cup of tea saying "well, he seems ok today"!!!

    All the other professionals come in and say we'll put a hand rail here and there and don't come back. We had an incontience nurse round 2 weeks ago to arrange getting pads on prescription. Her last words to Nan when she left where "don't buy any more pads as I'll sort out prescription one's for you" We'll still waiting and Nan has had to buy more!!!!

    All the services in the world can't offer Nan what she needs and that's someone around 24/7 or Grandad to go in a home. You hit the nail on the head Sylivia when you said "Your Nan, however is the one at risk here. If she becomes unable to cope, what happens to Granddad?" Would they take him kicking and screaming into a home then??!

    Unfortunately my Grandad is a very stubborn selfish man as much as we love him, and, no amount of persuasion will convince him what he needs and more importantly what this is doing to Nan.

    Nan is seeing the social worker again this week to find out what we can do about him going into a care home but I'm feeling very pessimistic at the moment.

    I just hope there is a solution out there somewhere.

    Louise x
  5. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    This has been said , but shall add what I was told from my social worker that they can not put my mother in a care home ,if she does not want to go, my mother is still in the stage that she knows her surrounding , so I am not going to force mum in to a care home .

    As your grandmother cannot convince him to go to care home or daycentre why not get a carer in for as many hours during the day that social services allows on those days that carer come in, you grandmother going to have to stand her ground and walk out , leavening the carer to get on with it , you grandmother then can visit a member of her family to get some rest.

    If he does not like that ,its daycentre

    I feel the more upset or angry you approach someone like your granddad, because your grandfather personality sounds like how my mother personality is.

    Standing your ground showing no fear no angry vibes towards him, Just plan your way or the high way ,(don't say that to him) sorry yes your granddad has rights so does your grandmother. The roles has change your grandmother has to be the strong one now and its going to be hard for your grandfather to except that , but it can be done . Firm but loving
  6. Kathleen

    Kathleen Registered User

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Sussex
    Hello Louise

    How was your grandad when he was in respite? Did he settle alright even though it was an enormous struggle to get him to go?

    If he was alright, then I can only suggest you find a permanent place for him and don't tell him he is going until the very last minute.

    Maybe your Nan's GP could be involved and speak to Social services on her behalf, Grannie G is right, your Nan is at risk and if your Grandad is not in a permanent care home soon, the GP and Social Services will have 2 patients in desperate trouble on their hands.

    Maybe a family member could go along to the GP with her to give her moral support, she must feel so torn at the moment.

  7. perfectpatience

    perfectpatience Registered User

    Oct 3, 2006
    carehome without consent

    Hi Louise. I really can understand and sympathise with your situation. Your grandad seems like he is still very much aware what is going on...and I know from experience this can be very difficult. You feel like you are battling against a brick wall most of the time. Is there any way you can compromise with him...though Iam sure you are doing just that anyway. Maybe he is not ready yet to go into a home...and if you pushed too much for this to happen....it only all ends in tears....trust me I know. Try again (be crafty if you have to) with the Respite....and he may even end up getting used to and liking it. Then when the day arrives that he has to be placed into a care home...the blow really wont be so bad for him. Good luck Louise. Whatever you decide to do. PP xx
  8. clare

    clare Registered User

    Oct 7, 2005
    Hi Louise

    I sympathise with your problems. In my own experience with my Mum, it got to a point where my father just couldn’t cope anymore and so something had to be done. I plagued the doctor, consultant and everyone else I could think of with constant phone calls pleading for help. They visited and said Mum needed assessment, She would not consent, only wanted to attack them and us. So in the end she had to be certified.
    Now where near as bad as it sounds, all the medics were in agreement that she needed help, and all signed to say she could be certified for 28days for assessment.
    This gave dad the break he needed but also it became clear to her consultant that she needed more help than we could giveand it was time to find a care home.

    You really do have to shout to get the help everyone needs. Chase up that incontinent nurse; make yourself a pain until they do their job. As someone else said here, the squeakiest wheel gets oiled first.

  9. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    Hi all,

    Well I've just got back from visiting Nan and Grandad. He spent most of the time asleep in his armchair. I felt like giving him a kick as I know he'll be up and down all night disturbing Nan!

    It's definitely a battle of will's with Grandad and Nan at the moment, she's even threatening to divorce him as she's had enough!

    There is no way we can get him to go to daycare or respite as he rarely leaves the house and the Respite centre said that they will only take him again if he comes in of his own accord and not with us tricking him. I think the only reason he stayed the full 12 days the first time was because he couldn't find the exit and he didn't have a clue where he was geographically!! He was not at all impressed being there.

    The carer thing we've not looked at yet as I think Nan was hoping Grandad might at least come round to the idea of daycare or respite. It's a pity Nan hasn't got a spare room as an overnight carer would be great. Saying that though Grandad would probably throw her out and shout at her!:rolleyes:

    To top things off, the solicitor came yesterday to get the EPA form's signed and Grandad refused as he said she'd written the wrong Postcode down!!!!! To say my Nan was livid is an undestatement. She shoved bank statements and all sorts under his nose but he wasn't having any of it at the time. He has now admitted he was wrong so it has had to be rescheduled.

    If you don't laugh you'll cry!!!!!!!:eek:

    PS I hope you don't think we are being insensitive towards Grandad, it's just we are so worried about Nan and don't want her to get ill.
  10. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    and I thought It was just my mum who done that ,As I think back to those days , yes very frustrating I know
    I would say Not . Just leaveing how to live with someone with Dementia is very hard .
  11. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Has your Grandmother had a carer's assessment? As others have said, it's the squeaky wheel etc., and while your grandmother may not be up to being that squeaky wheel, the rest of you CAN be.
  12. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
  13. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    I was wondering if sectioning could be done in this case (as harsh as it sounds). However the respite carers said he was one of their more alert patients when he went in. In other word he kicked up a stink about being there whereas everyone else either was more accepting or they didn't recognise where they were at all!

    Jennifer - I've no idea if Nan has had a carer's assessment. What does one of them involve?

    Clare said "You really do have to shout to get the help everyone needs. Chase up that incontinent nurse; make yourself a pain until they do their job. As someone else said here, the squeakiest wheel gets oiled first."

    Is it just me or do you find that the professionals make it hard going for you? Everyone promises stuff and then don't get back to you or they say it's not in their section and pass it on??!! Nan hasn't got the time or energy to keep chasing people up and half the time she just says there's no point as they aren't much help anyway! It's taken us 6 mths just to get the council tax 25% reduction sorted!

    Anyway I'd better stop ranting or I'll never stop:eek:

    Many thanks for your response's.

    Louise xx
  14. Áine

    Áine Registered User

    no Louise, you rant as much as you like. most of us around here know just what it's like :mad:
  15. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
  16. janjan

    janjan Registered User

    Jan 27, 2006
    Hi ya Louise. Just like to say, We asked SS two yrs ago to come and take a look at moms bathroom, to see what equipment we would need to help as in washing dad when he got worse with AD. Anyway to cut a long story short that request got lost in the pipe line and i didnt follow it up till a year later, then with a new SS i requested again. Still didnt get anywhere. Untill about two months ago, we started getting someone in to help wash and dress him two mornings a week. Then they started not turning up after a few weeks. Three weeks ago dad went into N/home. The day he went in mom had a call asking to make an apointment time with her so they could come and take a look at the bathroom. When she told me i was so tempted to ring them and ask them to call, and leave a note on the door. Your 2 years ...... late. But it was ironic that would of happened on the day he had to leave his own home for good. Louise sadley things gets moved around through diffrent people in SS, if you need help you have to be ringing them. Asking once is not always going to get a result. Things do get mislayed. I learnt the hard way. When dad refused to go to daycentre, i said dad we all have to do things we dont like doing sometimes, its just to give mom a bit of a rest, or do a bit of shopping. You cant stop there because they havnt got a bed for you to sleep in. I think he though he wouldnt be coming home if he went for a few hours. Sorry this is a long ramble on. But i know how tiring it must be for your nan trying to convince him to change his routine, and you trying to help them both is so draining. Hope you get something sorted soon. :) Janet :)
  17. Cate

    Cate Registered User

    Jul 2, 2006
    Newport, Gwent
    Hi Louise

    I really does sound as if you and your nan are having a truly awful time.

    How about asking for respite for your nan, she really sounds as if she is the one who needs the TLC at the moment.

    Just maybe this will force the SW into some positive action re support for her at home with you granddad. Or simply saying that Nan needs respite, so what at they going to organsie for granddad?

    I agree 150% with 'he who shouts loudest gets the action'.

    You rant as much as you need to, we really all do understand your plight.
    Take care.
  18. Lila13

    Lila13 Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    At all the homes I saw my mother's consent would have been necessary, they all wanted her to come along for assessment, and even getting her there for assessment required consent. That even applied to the respite place. I was quite surprised she consented.

    When my father was persuaded to go into hospital for a few days to give my mother a rest, she insisted on visiting him for 8 hours every day. I don't think he had dementia, was just very childish, especially in those last 5 years. (I remember asking her can't you get a baby-sitter for him, not good for anyone to be so dependent on one person.)

  19. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    Hi all (again).

    Well I think we'd better prepare Nan for the fact that she might not be able to get Grandad into a home. It does sound as if he'd have to deteriorate a lot more for him to be sectioned. We'll just have to see what SS suggest as Nan can't carry on like this.

    On a light hearted note - when they came again to look at the bathroom they said there isn't anywhere to put a grab rail so they muttered something about putting in a floor to ceiling pole!! Well that really tickled Nan and the rest of us with visions of a pole dancing pole in the bathroom and Grandad holding on to it for dear life!!!!:eek:

    Louise x
  20. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006

    You made me laugh out loud :) Now I have to wipe coffee off my screen.


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