Financial Cost of caring

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by Louise.D, May 20, 2007.

  1. Louise.D

    Louise.D Registered User

    Apr 13, 2007
    Would like advise from other carers.

    My dad died 7 weeks ago leaving me with my mum who has dementia to care for.

    She needs 24 hour supervision according to Mental Health nurse but I have been leaving her alone for up to 1 hour as I have kids to take to school etc.

    I was due to go back to work but now I'm unable to as it's not cost efficient as a private nurse would have to be hired at 12:50 per hour and I would be earning only 7.00 per hour. It's cheaper for mum to pay me for my loss of earnings, but can she do that? I have claimed carers allowance of £48.65 per week and mum is happy to top this up with another £87.00. She is also happy to contribute towards bills and pay one fifth or more. Is this reasonable? Someone has suggested that she can pay half and I should put all our household bills in joint names as she will be using up more than one fifth of the utilies as the washing machine, dryer and central heating are going 24/7.

    This is all well and good at the moment but, if she were ever to run low on capital and have to claim for her personal care then could I be accused of financial deprevation?

    Social Services have told me I should be keeping her rent free and should not take any money from her, not even for her food as this does not count towards financial assessment. They also told me that I shoud of been aware of this before I took her on.

    Also, I am planning to have disabled accomadation built for her. She has the money to pay for it and it's for her benefit only but if I were in a situation where i cannot look after her (eg Stroke) could social services put a debt against a bedroom extension or my property?

    Is anyone else in a similar situation? I don't mind looking after her, but my husband and I have two kids and I need to work to pay the bills. I don't want to profit from my mother or compromise her future position if she need to go into a nursing home in the event I could not manage.

    Has anyone any suggestions/advise. My brother has EPOA and is happy to give me whatever I need but like me is concerned about financial deprevation.
  2. Whiskas

    Whiskas Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    This seems totally unfair they don't look after anybody for free do they??!!

    My Mum lives with me and I am her fulltime carer but we bought the house between us 6 years ago so it is slightly different to your situation. Mum pays her share of the bills etc. Contact your local branch of the Alzheimer's Society if they are as good as my branch they will help you and if they don't know the answer they will find out. They will give you support in other ways which I'm sure you will need, you are taking on a big responsibility but good for you. Don't feel you are on your own, this site is brilliant. I don't post much just read everything and it makes a big difference.

    Good luck with everything.
  3. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    Years ago I lived with my grandmother when I was forced to leave home.

    I was a student and gave her a pittance to cover my food.

    My grandmother was on, in those days, the equivalent of Income Support.

    A neighbour reported her to SS, saying my grandmother had a lodger.

    She lost all her Income Support.
  4. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    near London
    I'd be calling the local Alzheimer's Society branch, the national Alzheimer's Society Help Line, and also checking with the CAB

    Between them they should be able to provide information that will clarify your situation for you, and enable you to make decisions.

    One thing is clear, and this is not a political point - in our society, 'society' pays out a lot of money for things that the money should not be used for.... and 'society' does not pay out money on essential things that the money should definitely be used for.
  5. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #5 Margarita, May 20, 2007
    Last edited: May 20, 2007
    Now that does sound strange not even for food , they talking **** .

    My mother live with me & is class as a non depended , what that mean is that I have to pay 7 pounds towards my rent , because of my mother live with me

    if my mother did not live with me I would have to get a full time Job and pay my rent in full.

    My daughter is a student , I am on income support , the law has change now , they don't include her money as long as she does not work over 33 hours ,

    she can work under 16 , still claim jobseeker allowance I would still get my income support .

    my daughter does not work , so just live on student loans .

    They do not include my mother income even in working out my benefits

    all I can foresee happening if you build the extension on your mother house with her saving , & she needs to go into a home then your be financial responsible , to pay for care home fee ., with the money of hers that built the extension

    yes I would get legal advice if I was you , AZ or citizen advice .


    My mother has her money in her own account, but I have been told legal I can put her money into my account, so I can have easy access

    It all gets very complicated when if come to any saving they have, not from benfits and pension they have .

    No as if your using your mother saving only for her needs , all you would have to do is keep records of it
  6. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Dear Louise,

    It would be fair to say that this is an extremely complex area: so complex that I have serious doubts that an over-worked social worker would have ANY iDEA what the rules in fact were. Yes, I'm sure they pick up bits here and there, but frankly I doubt that anyone who didn't specilalise in the area would know the answer, even a general solicitor. You'd need someone who deals with these issues day in, day out.

    At the most simplistic level, deprivation of assets is governed by Section 21 of The Health and Social Services & Social Security Adjudication Act and Regulation 25(1) of The National Assistance (Assessment of Resources) Regulations 1992. However, these have been ammended so many times, that it simply isn't possible for a lay person to simply look at the regulations and say that one thing applies and another doesn't.

    Having said that, I can find nothing in the regulations that indicates that if you are housing an elderly relative you cannot recoup your out-of-pocket expenses. I'm not talking about loss of earnings or rent here, but food and maintenance costs. Now those payments may effect your own eligibility for some benefits, but I cannot find any evidence that those payments would count as intentional deprivation of assets from the point of view of paying for care. Difficult to prove a negative however.

    I suspect that at the social workers statement is based at least in part on guidance related to the Independent Living Fund and Direct Payments. In both those cases you may not use money to pay for care from a relative that lives with you. However, I do not think that that restriction necessarily follows in this particular case. It may do, I hasten to add, but I cannot find evidence that it does.

    Most of the information about deprivation of assets talks about intent: was it the intention of the asset holder (or the attorney) to spend down assets in order to ensure that the LA would have to pay for care? Sadly, I do think some LA's try to frighten carers about this. However, it is up to them to prove that intentional deprivation of assets have occurred.

    In closing: Find a professional to assist you! A good source is since they specialise in "social welfare" law.

  7. chip

    chip Registered User

    Jul 19, 2005
    I am also very angry with the "system " i have worked out that with the tax (IR and council) care charges, all the benefits get paid back to the government/ local government as well. The care system takes it all back what they give. We all know why we are encouraged to save, buy our homes, take out private pensions. Its incase we fall ill and need care so we pay for it.:mad: It is forgotten what these people have done to help the country.
  8. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    The "system" is designed to get you one way or the other

    My Mother scrimped and scraped and saved and wouldnt spend or help out her grandkids or greatgrandkids and what happened ........Gordon Brown extracted a HUGE amount in Inheritance Tax

    In my Mothers entire working life she did not earn the amount the system screwed out of her estate in tax

    All because she had a tiny 2 bed bungalow

    I wish she had enjoyed the money or given it to a dogs home rather than the government
  9. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #9 Margarita, May 20, 2007
    Last edited: May 20, 2007
    I may be reading that wrong , about Direct payments , but Direct payments is sit up for paying for outside care for the relative to live with us .

    or are you saying that Direct payments is not pay to us , for caring for are relative , which yes that is right.

    Now they never done that to me when giving / working out my benefits , as my mother is not my partner, so do not consider her pension , benefits as my income as I am her carer as a daughter.

    they only do that
    when your husband wife or living with a partner
  10. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Yes you can use direct payment to pay for outside help in the event that you live with a relative. What you can't do is employ your live in relative and use the direct payments to fund that. In fact it's fairly diificult to get permission to use direct payment to pay for care from a relative that DOESN'T live with you - not impossible though.
  11. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #11 Margarita, May 21, 2007
    Last edited: May 21, 2007
    OIC That is such a shame really, because that would be good for the night time when in late stages .

    I suppose one would have to do the night shift oneself & someone from outside does the day shift & pay them with Direct payments , is the only other way around it .

    your talking about a relative ! oh I lost the plot , now I know what you mean , how thats just complicating things more
  12. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Personally, I think it's extremely unfair, but that's how it is.
  13. Louise.D

    Louise.D Registered User

    Apr 13, 2007
    Thanks for everyone's advise. My brother, on Thursday will be seeing a solicitor. It's getting complicated and nasty as Social Services have bullied me into acting as guarantor for my mothers care at around £600.00 per month. They say that we should know her financial position, but my dad didn't leave much information, just sat me down the day before he died and told me. We laughed but ironically he died the next day.

    I'm getting a bit P***ed off with Social Services as they are trying to get us to put her house up for sale. I keep telling them that she dosn't own the whole house just part, but they don't wanna know. I cannot see how they can put a debt against one half of a property, but as I now own the other quarter and my brother the same they keep threatening me to withdraw her care. My brother is adamant that he's not selling his share. They have asked me to supply title deeds to my house even though that's nothing to do with her and when I asked for carers allowance they laughed. I since know that I'm entitled to this but nothing else.

    The banks keep screwing up the EPOA and losing stuff. What nightmare!!!!!

    Her carers just arrived, supposed to be here for 30 mins to take her to the toilet and make her a cup of tea, I'm hiding out upstairs and she's been in and out in 7 mins. What a bloody joke. I'm now going to have to take mum to the toilet before I pick my son up from school or face a wet sofa. These chaps want £12.00 per hour and do sod all.

    Oh well, at least I'm not going to have this problem. I'm going to party really hard from now on. Let the state look after me for free, after all I've worked for it.
  14. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    Hi Louise,

    make sure you phone the helpline or contact them by email

    There are rules and regulations to protect people from selling there home and you should be aware of them. I cannot commend the alzheimer's helpline enough and if they do not know the answer they will certainly guide you to someone who does.

    Kind Regards

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