Financial concerns/Depreciation of Assets

[Bontempi]

My father was diagnosed with dementia and episodes of delusional behaviour on Wednesday. He currently lives in a residential home and has been since January. He self funds.

However, last week the care home he is in decided that they can no longer look after him (pre-diagnosis), as he is aggressive and not taking his normal medications.

On Wednesday he had a mental health assessment, and this is being dealt with and an EMI care home sought. However, unbeknownst to me his finances are not in good order (but that’s another story).

My question is: My Dad sold his house in 2018 and moved in with one of my siblings. My Dad gave each of my siblings proceeds from the sale of house (equally split 4 ways). He did this because in his Will the property was intended to be split this way. He lived with my sibling for 3 years before needing residential care. At the time he sold the house, I would say that my Dad needed help with certain things (cleaning/cooking) but refused to pay for it. Apart from this, he was quite independent.

During the time my Dad was living with my sibling, Dads pension was being put into his bank account and he had no bills. I have assumed that Dads financial situation were in good place and that he had enough to self fund his care for many many years. Dad has a very good pension, as well as savings (or rather had savings).

I am wondering what the local authority would think about Dad selling his house in these circumstances and whether they would consider it as depreciation of assets?

My main concern is getting my Dad the care he needs at this point in time, however, if he is not eligible for NHS funded care (CHC) the realistic fact is he will run out of funds in around 6-8 months, depending on the costs of the EMI setting. I do not know what his life expectancy will be if he doesn’t take his prescribed medication (it’s obviously shorter ?).

 

[nita]

I can't help with the deprivation of assets query but I'd just point out that Funded Nursing Care (FNC) is not the same as Continuing Health Care (CHC). I think everyone (?) in a nursing home would get FNC which is some help towards the fees but CHC is a different matter. This covers all costs and is quite difficult to get and has to be applied for. His new EMI home should set this in motion - have a look at the CHC checklist and see if your father may meet the criteria.

 

[Jessbow]

CHC funing is extremely difficult to get.

Counil funding is different- and given that he distributed his money when he did may well be seen of deprevation of assets

 

[imthedaughter]

Hello @Bontempi I do sympathise with having a dad whose financials are a mess. I had the same thing with unpaid bills and all sorts all over the place and three years on he's living with the threat of bankruptcy but blissfully unaware of it. Dementia can make people give away money to scams or charity etc and generally make bad decisions.

I think the LA could take a dim view of the house sale as it could be considered deprivation of assets (it is, essentially distributing a will before you are dead, presumably to avoid tax/'losing' money to care/other reasons people do this sort of thing) but you may find the local authority doesn't take it into account.

You'd have to apply for a financial assessment if he's under the threshold of savings and see what they say. I have to say I've done two and no one has queried when/how dad sold his home or where the money went (half to him and half to his ex-wife as ordered by the family court, but no-one made me show the paperwork).

I would act on the presumption that Dad could live for quite a while. Always best to be prepared. If the council do think it's deprivation of assets, they could ask all the siblings to pay it back. Which might be quite awkward unless you've kept in back, just in case.

 

[Banjomansmate]

When I was completing The Banjoman’s financial assessment for LA funding I was asked about property that he had owned and sold. As I was unable to answer any questions like except to say he then “had no current property“, nothing more was asked.

 

[Bontempi]

Hello @Bontempi I do sympathise with having a dad whose financials are a mess. I had the same thing with unpaid bills and all sorts all over the place and three years on he's living with the threat of bankruptcy but blissfully unaware of it. Dementia can make people give away money to scams or charity etc and generally make bad decisions.

I think the LA could take a dim view of the house sale as it could be considered deprivation of assets (it is, essentially distributing a will before you are dead, presumably to avoid tax/'losing' money to care/other reasons people do this sort of thing) but you may find the local authority doesn't take it into account.

You'd have to apply for a financial assessment if he's under the threshold of savings and see what they say. I have to say I've done two and no one has queried when/how dad sold his home or where the money went (half to him and half to his ex-wife as ordered by the family court, but no-one made me show the paperwork).

I would act on the presumption that Dad could live for quite a while. Always best to be prepared. If the council do think it's deprivation of assets, they could ask all the siblings to pay it back. Which might be quite awkward unless you've kept in back, just in case.

Thank you. I’m of the same opinion regarding deprivation of assets, which will be quite difficult as I’ve already spent most of it due to my husband being made redundant in 2019 ?. I have contacted social services and am informed that they will be contacting my step-sister regarding a financial assessment. Im under the impression that a financial assessment is the last thing my siblings want - as they have all been aware of my father’s financial affairs (and I have been kept in the dark).

My dads savings are just above the upper threshold, but below the point when our local authority would normally have started putting a process

I can't help with the deprivation of assets query but I'd just point out that Funded Nursing Care (FNC) is not the same as Continuing Health Care (CHC). I think everyone (?) in a nursing home would get FNC which is some help towards the fees but CHC is a different matter. This covers all costs and is quite difficult to get and has to be applied for. His new EMI home should set this in motion - have a look at the CHC checklist and see if your father may meet the criteria.

Thanks I have already. I contacted them yesterday and adult social services are going to look it into as they need to consider it, as part of the FNC process. I have looked at the criteria and there’s a possibility he might - but as things are extremely stretched in the NHS and, as you say it’s extremely difficult to get, I can only live in hope that he may qualify. I don’t know what will happen to him otherwise ☹️

 

[Bontempi]

When I was completing The Banjoman’s financial assessment for LA funding I was asked about property that he had owned and sold. As I was unable to answer any questions like except to say he then “had no current property“, nothing more was asked.

Thanks - I’m just so uncomfortable with it all (not the assessment) just the mess he’s in .

Thank you. I’m of the same opinion regarding deprivation of assets, which will be quite difficult as I’ve already spent most of it due to my husband being made redundant in 2019 ?. I have contacted social services and am informed that they will be contacting my step-sister regarding a financial assessment. Im under the impression that a financial assessment is the last thing my siblings want - as they have all been aware of my father’s financial affairs (and I have been kept in the dark).

My dads savings are just above the upper threshold, but below the point when our local authority would normally have started putting a process

Thanks I have already. I contacted them yesterday and adult social services are going to look it into as they need to consider it, as part of the FNC process. I have looked at the criteria and there’s a possibility he might - but as things are extremely stretched in the NHS and, as you say it’s extremely difficult to get, I can only live in hope that he may qualify. I don’t know what will happen to him otherwise ☹️

CHC funing is extremely difficult to get.

Counil funding is different- and given that he distributed his money when he did may well be seen of deprevation of assets

Hello @Bontempi I do sympathise with having a dad whose financials are a mess. I had the same thing with unpaid bills and all sorts all over the place and three years on he's living with the threat of bankruptcy but blissfully unaware of it. Dementia can make people give away money to scams or charity etc and generally make bad decisions.

I think the LA could take a dim view of the house sale as it could be considered deprivation of assets (it is, essentially distributing a will before you are dead, presumably to avoid tax/'losing' money to care/other reasons people do this sort of thing) but you may find the local authority doesn't take it into account.

You'd have to apply for a financial assessment if he's under the threshold of savings and see what they say. I have to say I've done two and no one has queried when/how dad sold his home or where the money went (half to him and half to his ex-wife as ordered by the family court, but no-one made me show the paperwork).

I would act on the presumption that Dad could live for quite a while. Always best to be prepared. If the council do think it's deprivation of assets, they could ask all the siblings to pay it back. Which might be quite awkward unless you've kept in back, just in case.

Hello @Bontempi I do sympathise with having a dad whose financials are a mess. I had the same thing with unpaid bills and all sorts all over the place and three years on he's living with the threat of bankruptcy but blissfully unaware of it. Dementia can make people give away money to scams or charity etc and generally make bad decisions.

I think the LA could take a dim view of the house sale as it could be considered deprivation of assets (it is, essentially distributing a will before you are dead, presumably to avoid tax/'losing' money to care/other reasons people do this sort of thing) but you may find the local authority doesn't take it into account.

You'd have to apply for a financial assessment if he's under the threshold of savings and see what they say. I have to say I've done two and no one has queried when/how dad sold his home or where the money went (half to him and half to his ex-wife as ordered by the family court, but no-one made me show the paperwork).

I would act on the presumption that Dad could live for quite a while. Always best to be prepared. If the council do think it's deprivation of assets, they could ask all the siblings to pay it back. Which might be quite awkward unless you've kept in back, just in case.

Thank you. I’m of the same opinion regarding deprivation of assets, which will be quite difficult as I’ve already spent most of it due to my husband being made redundant in 2019 ?. I have contacted social services and am informed that they will be contacting my step-sister regarding a financial assessment. Im under the impression that a financial assessment is the last thing my siblings want - as they have all been aware of my father’s financial affairs (and I have been kept in the dark).

My dads savings are just above the upper threshold, but below the point when our local authority would normally have started putting a processes to help.

It’s all such a mess - and I wasn’t aware until Saturday that finances were even an issue. My siblings have acted amongst themselves with regards to Dads finances over the past 6 years, and despite my asking for more involvement regarding Dads finances have consistently been left in the dark.

Personally I’d love them to a financial assessment because I’d like to know the answer where all my parents money went to? It’s all just such a mess and I shouldn’t need to worrying about anything else, except my dad .

 

[Bontempi]

CHC funing is extremely difficult to get.

Counil funding is different- and given that he distributed his money when he did may well be seen of deprevation of assets

Thanks

 

[Bontempi]

I apologise I seem to have made a right mess of replying to you all. But I appreciate all your messages.

 

[nitram]

FNC is £209.19/wk , can only be paid direct to homes that have a nurse on duty 24/7and may not cover the difference between the nursing home fees for residential and nursing.

The assessment might well go - how long have you lived with sibling? - where did you live before and were you renting?

 

[imthedaughter]

My dads savings are just above the upper threshold, but below the point when our local authority would normally have started putting a processes to help.

It’s all such a mess - and I wasn’t aware until Saturday that finances were even an issue. My siblings have acted amongst themselves with regards to Dads finances over the past 6 years, and despite my asking for more involvement regarding Dads finances have consistently been left in the dark.

Personally I’d love them to a financial assessment because I’d like to know the answer where all my parents money went to? It’s all just such a mess and I shouldn’t need to worrying about anything else, except my dad .

I was so embarrassed when dad had all these debts. He wasn't amazing with money but the idea of debt and red bills scared him until dementia took over, and I realised, to late, that he didn't understand them. He thought they were paying him money sometimes. I saw a letter from the bank with a early repayment quote for a small loan he had almost paid off - I'd requested the settlement just to get it out of the way - dad wrote on the envelope - Bank wants to increase my overdraft - NO THANK YOU!! Then I realised he was so mixed up I would have to take over.
I have spent more time sorting out my dad's affairs than anything else to care for him. The paperwork etc is really the most time consuming bit if they are safely in residential care.

 

[Bontempi]

It’s just so awful isn’t it? All you want to do is care for them, but it’s so hard when you have to worry about £. I feel for you.

 

[Bontempi]

FNC is £209.19/wk , can only be paid direct to homes that have a nurse on duty 24/7and may not cover the difference between the nursing home fees for residential and nursing.

The assessment might well go - how long have you lived with sibling? - where did you live before and were you renting?

Dad hasn’t got the mental capacity to remember any of that information. He won’t be able to do the assessment himself, he is unaware of most things. I’m assuming the social services will ask these sort of questions to his next of kin.

I’ll be glad if it’s paid directly to nursing home - at least I’d know it’d be safe. I’ve looked at the cost of the potential places he could be placed - even with FNC in place his money would run out in a few months as they are double what he currently pays.

Social services are visiting him on Monday to do an assessment. Unfortunately they can’t place him in an EMI at the moment due to the fact he hasn’t got a ‘management plan/program’ in place. They won’t be able to find a home for him, unless they are willing to take him without one - and then they have to take his needs/other residents needs into account. Also staffing issues are an issue, as he is very aggressive and 2 ambulance man weren’t able to restrain him earlier this week. It may be the case hes admitted to an NHS psychiatric facility until they can place him somewhere suitable in the community.

It’s just a nightmare really.

 

[nitram]

It may be the case hes admitted to an NHS psychiatric facility until they can place him somewhere suitable in the community.

This could lead to a section 2 for assessment followed by a section 3 and then section 117 in which case care would be free.

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/sectioning/about-sectioning/ .