Hi

[nitram]

Thanks, so if I apply do I have to tell mum? because if I do she will tell him about it. He obviously wouldn't want it to happen as it'll mean he wouldn't get any more money from mum.

You have to tell mum, usually you would tell him - scroll down
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/apply-property-financial-affairs-deputy .

In your case if nothing is done to prevent him he might even nearly clear the account.
Push safeguarding to do its duty and protect a vulnerable person and get legal advice.

 

[ian01]

Does mum use the PIN?
You can see transactions on the account, do you know the PIN?
Your mum could ask you to change the PIN because she thinks 'others know it'.

She can't remember her PIN so keeps it on a piece of paper with her card which is obviously a very bad idea. She usually pays contactless but occasionally it asks for the PIN. I have mums banking app on my phone so I can see all transactions. She asked me to get her £100 yesterday afternoon from the ATM and by the evening she told me it had all gone and she didn't know where it is. I know he's stolen it but can't prove it. The same happened last Thurs her purse with £100 in it disappeared and never turned up. Absolute nightmare for me. The problem is mum thinks she can trust him as she can't remember everything he done in the past. I could change her PIN but she'll give it to him again.

 

[nitram]

You getting the cash from ATM means no photographic evidence of him getting it out, only you using the PIN which she should not have given you.

 

[Chaplin]

Sorry to hear your brother is treating your mum like this, I appreciate he’s family but if this was someone else living with your mum and stealing from her, I’m sure you call the Police. I know that’s a tough call but it’s despicable what he’s doing to her and it needs to stop!

 

[ian01]

You getting the cash from ATM means no photographic evidence of him getting it out, only you using the PIN which she should not have given you.

You have to tell mum, usually you would tell him - scroll down
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/apply-property-financial-affairs-deputy .

In your case if nothing is done to prevent him he might even nearly clear the account.
Push safeguarding to do its duty and protect a vulnerable person and get legal advice.

I spoke to safeguarding yesterday and they are doing nothing, all they have done is tell me to apply for deputyship. They haven't seen or even spoken to mum.

 

[ian01]

I'm shocked safeguarding won't do anything. Mum is extremely vulnerable and living with a drug addict.

 

[ian01]

Sorry to hear your brother is treating your mum like this, I appreciate he’s family but if this was someone else living with your mum and stealing from her, I’m sure you call the Police. I know that’s a tough call but it’s despicable what he’s doing to her and it needs to stop!

I reported his drug use after finding paraphernalia in his bedroom showing he is snorting cocaine. The police made a welfare check on Mum a few days later. She was extremely angry with me for bringing the police to the house.

 

[maggie6445]

She can't remember her PIN so keeps it on a piece of paper with her card which is obviously a very bad idea. She usually pays contactless but occasionally it asks for the PIN. I have mums banking app on my phone so I can see all transactions. She asked me to get her £100 yesterday afternoon from the ATM and by the evening she told me it had all gone and she didn't know where it is. I know he's stolen it but can't prove it. The same happened last Thurs her purse with £100 in it disappeared and never turned up. Absolute nightmare for me. The problem is mum thinks she can trust him as she can't remember everything he done in the past. I could change her PIN but she'll give it to him again.

Oh dear , this must be worrying for you
Would your mum go with you to the bank and agree to you being an appointee on the account? It would give you permission to act on the account .
Or... could you persuade her to move any money in the account that is more than is needed for her daily expenses. You could encourage her to open a saving account with interest that needs a passbook. It would make it harder to withdraw without her signature ,you could keep book for safe keeping if she agrees.
Or.. if you are appointee you can use the app to move money to a saving account or saving pot attached to the account. While it's in the saving pot I don't think you can withdraw on a card.
Does your brother have access to the bank app as well ?
Apply for deputyship if she has lost capacity.
Not sure what else to suggest that you can do.

 

[ian01]

Oh dear , this must be worrying for you
Would your mum go with you to the bank and agree to you being an appointee on the account? It would give you permission to act on the account .
Or... could you persuade her to move any money in the account that is more than is needed for her daily expenses. You could encourage her to open a saving account with interest that needs a passbook. It would make it harder to withdraw without her signature ,you could keep book for safe keeping if she agrees.
Or.. if you are appointee you can use the app to move money to a saving account or saving pot attached to the account. While it's in the saving pot I don't think you can withdraw on a card.
Does your brother have access to the bank app as well ?
Apply for deputyship if she has lost capacity.
Not sure what else to suggest that you can do.

My brother doesn't have access to the app. I spoken to mum this morning and told her I strongly suspect he is stealing from her. She has agreed to let me change the PIN which I will do tomorrow. I enquired about deputyship at a local solicitor and they said it'll cost £1500 plus vat. Which I can't afford. I now need to find a way of catching him out.

 

[maggie6445]

My brother doesn't have access to the app. I spoken to mum this morning and told her I strongly suspect he is stealing from her. She has agreed to let me change the PIN which I will do tomorrow. I enquired about deputyship at a local solicitor and they said it'll cost £1500 plus vat. Which I can't afford. I now need to find a way of catching him out.

If mum has agreed then would she go to the bank to make appointee formal. ? You then could open saving pots. If he found out the pin then,if you kept a limited amount of money in the current account part he would run out of money to access.
If she can agree, do an LPA ,cost £80 ISH and mum can pay for it. It can be done on line. brother doesn't have to know if mum doesn't tell him

 

[ian01]

If mum has agreed then would she go to the bank to make appointee formal. ? You then could open saving pots. If he found out the pin then,if you kept a limited amount of money in the current account part he would run out of money to access.
If she can agree, do an LPA ,cost £80 ISH and mum can pay for it. It can be done on line. brother doesn't have to know if mum doesn't tell him

Mum doesn't have capacity now so can't do an LPA. I've not heard of the bank appointee before. I'll do some research.

 

[maggie6445]

Maybe mornings are the best time to talk to your mum if she agreed pin change. Could you take her to the bank one morning and get her to authorise you to manage her account? That would give you the chance to put money in savings pots and drip feed the current account to cover bills when they were due. You might be given your own bank card for her account. That way it can be checked who is drawing cash If your mum can't get to the cash machine.
Changing the pin will only work if she doesn't write it down and give to your brother. It might be best if your mum agree not to have her own card.

 

[ian01]

Maybe mornings are the best time to talk to your mum if she agreed pin change. Could you take her to the bank one morning and get her to authorise you to manage her account? That would give you the chance to put money in savings pots and drip feed the current account to cover bills when they were due. You might be given your own bank card for her account. That way it can be checked who is drawing cash If your mum can't get to the cash machine.
Changing the pin will only work if she doesn't write it down and give to your brother. It might be best if your mum agree not to have her own card.

When you say get her to authorise me do you mean let me be an appointee? Sorry for the silly questions this is all new to me. I read an appointee manages someone else's benefits, not sure if that's correct?

 

[nitram]

A DWP appointee manages benefits and nothing else.

For a normal bank account it's third party access which is only valid whilst the account holder has capacity as is an ordinary power of attorney,

 

[ian01]

A DWP appointee manages benefits and nothing else.

For a normal bank account it's third party access which is only valid whilst the account holder has capacity as is an ordinary power of attorney,

Thanks so that's a no go.

 

[nitram]

The LA have the ultimate duty of care for your mum as a vulnerable adult.
When suspected financial abuse is reported they should investigate.
Telling you to obtain deputyship and sort it seems to me to be abandoning that duty.

You could ask CAB or AgeUK to clarify the position regarding the LA's responsibility.

 

[ian01]

The LA have the ultimate duty of care for your mum as a vulnerable adult.
When suspected financial abuse is reported they should investigate.
Telling you to obtain deputyship and sort it seems to me to be abandoning that duty.

You could ask CAB or AgeUK to clarify the position regarding the LA's responsibility.

Yes I'm shocked they have done nothing. All I got from them was a 2 min phone call saying I should get deputyship and then they closed the safeguarding case from the psychiatrist. Going to the CAB is a good idea as there is one local. Thanks nitram.

 

[nitram]

@ian01

If you ring in for an appointment and say what help you need it may help you to see the correct 'expert'

 

[maggie6445]

Hi ,I've just read a post on here where someone is being checked by social services after what seems alleged financial abuse. Would it be better to to ask social services to check your brother for financial abuse of a vulnerable person? I don't know how these things work but surely there must be a system to protect vulnerable people.
I'd be interested to know CAB advise in situations like this

 

[canary]

I applied to the Court of protection for deputyship for my mum because she wouldnt grant POA either. I did it myself, you dont have to go through a solicitor and organisations like Age UK, Citizens Advice or a local carers organisation should be able to help you with the form filling. I would start the ball rolling on this as if the bank gets wind of her having lost capacity they may freeze her accounts so that no-one can access them until someone has deputyship. Also, if you dont apply, then SS will probably apply themselves - when SS told me that I needed to apply for deputyship they also told me that if I didnt want to do it them they would apply (and not on my behalf)