The State to manage Mums finances?
- Thread starter classact72
- Start date
min88cat
I thought that as well, but we have had the same problem, SW usually have someone else with them when they start asking questions, Could the "two ladies" be 2 x Sw + advocate?
We had a situation recently where an advocate appointed by a hospital SW (I had reported the hospital for elder abuse...) asked to talk to mum alone, we allowed her to do this as we were led to believe that mum should be questioned without another person there, have read things on here since which make me doubt this. Weren't told that anything was said that was anything amiss, mum suspicious of strangers so probably said little. When it came to the final discharge meeting the advocate said she had questioned mum, mum didn't have capacity (tests either side of this said she did
) and didn't care where she lived. The advocate was siding with SW, her manager was there and vigorously slated me - no manual handling training ( eeerrr, yes I have), no POA so have to allow anyone SW deemed into our home even if we had grave doubts about them. It was horrendous, the advocate's manager seemed Hell bent on condeming dad & I, the situation didn't feel as though it was in mum's 'best interests'. We had an independant witness there, did not tell Sw in advance, witness was visibly shocked by what was being said. We later found out that what the manager had said wasn't quite the truth. On reflection I felt that the manager knew 'something' about us and was acting in a way which suggested that it was us who were suspected of abuse. We didn't injure mum, it happened over several nights while she was patient in hospital. What do you make of that situation? I have been atttempting to get hold of the briefing notes for the advocates, it is like getting blood out of a stone.
Would be very interested for clarification of who can carry out capacity tests and if there has to be more than one person.
I thought that as well, but we have had the same problem, SW usually have someone else with them when they start asking questions, Could the "two ladies" be 2 x Sw + advocate?
We had a situation recently where an advocate appointed by a hospital SW (I had reported the hospital for elder abuse...) asked to talk to mum alone, we allowed her to do this as we were led to believe that mum should be questioned without another person there, have read things on here since which make me doubt this. Weren't told that anything was said that was anything amiss, mum suspicious of strangers so probably said little. When it came to the final discharge meeting the advocate said she had questioned mum, mum didn't have capacity (tests either side of this said she did
) and didn't care where she lived. The advocate was siding with SW, her manager was there and vigorously slated me - no manual handling training ( eeerrr, yes I have), no POA so have to allow anyone SW deemed into our home even if we had grave doubts about them. It was horrendous, the advocate's manager seemed Hell bent on condeming dad & I, the situation didn't feel as though it was in mum's 'best interests'. We had an independant witness there, did not tell Sw in advance, witness was visibly shocked by what was being said. We later found out that what the manager had said wasn't quite the truth. On reflection I felt that the manager knew 'something' about us and was acting in a way which suggested that it was us who were suspected of abuse. We didn't injure mum, it happened over several nights while she was patient in hospital. What do you make of that situation? I have been atttempting to get hold of the briefing notes for the advocates, it is like getting blood out of a stone.Would be very interested for clarification of who can carry out capacity tests and if there has to be more than one person.
Apparently anyone can assess for mental incapacity as long as they follow the principles and can justify their outcome. It doesn't have to be a GP or medical practitioner. Usually a SW. Mum's was done by SW and her superviser back in May this year.
No, the 'two ladies' didn't include her advocate because Ive asked her and she isn't aware that any assessment has taken place.
I had an email from the SW (I predicted she'd send one late Friday). She informs that we will be receiving a letter from the interim service manager and she is going on leave for 2 weeks. Strange how she never mentioned it before. She hasn't even bothered to reply and tell me if she's put anything in place to prevent my Mum's accounts being dipped into and I haven't had acknowledgement of receipt of my complaint from SS even though I requested one.
Stinks to me of something fishy to me.
No, the 'two ladies' didn't include her advocate because Ive asked her and she isn't aware that any assessment has taken place.
I had an email from the SW (I predicted she'd send one late Friday). She informs that we will be receiving a letter from the interim service manager and she is going on leave for 2 weeks. Strange how she never mentioned it before. She hasn't even bothered to reply and tell me if she's put anything in place to prevent my Mum's accounts being dipped into and I haven't had acknowledgement of receipt of my complaint from SS even though I requested one.
Stinks to me of something fishy to me.
Some of what you have written sounds a bit too familiar - the email before the weekend, just going on leave, do they all work from the same instruction manual?
i wouldn't say it sounds fishy, but hang on! Wait a minute! What do I smell? Ahhh, nothing but a pile of old trout disguarded on a hot radiator.... Or is it?
i wouldn't say it sounds fishy, but hang on! Wait a minute! What do I smell? Ahhh, nothing but a pile of old trout disguarded on a hot radiator.... Or is it?
Hi there,
By bizzarre behaviour i was referring to the fact that the SW seem to be taking control of your mum and her decisions - her family if they are involved (which you are) should be included in all aspects of her care assessments and provisions. If your mum has been assessed as lacking mental capacity then you should have a signed and dated copy of this by the person who assessed her. Somebody cannot just declare this to be the case, they have to have the official documentation in front of them and complete it with the reasons why they have reached this decision. In our case we took the forms to the DR who was really helpfull and completed them. When you apply for a court of protection order then you can have more than one deputy so that could be a compromise? You do have inform people close to your mum that you are applying for the court order - it's four or five people i recall and should ideally be those closest in decending order BUT if there is a reason why you do not want somebody informed then you have the option of recording why. In my case, i should of, in theory informed my uncles only daughter that i was applying but she had cleared his bank account of £22,000 and disappeared.
If you do have a court order then the persons bank accounts will be closed and put into something called a deputy account - a new card is issued in your name not theirs and also a cheque book. There are 3 security levels with a court order dependent on how much income the person has and all transactions have to be recorded and justified so nobody can take advantage - security levels 1 and 2 mean you have to submit yearly accounts and level 3 you don't generally have to provide a report but must keep records incase they request them.
Hope that helps!
J
By bizzarre behaviour i was referring to the fact that the SW seem to be taking control of your mum and her decisions - her family if they are involved (which you are) should be included in all aspects of her care assessments and provisions. If your mum has been assessed as lacking mental capacity then you should have a signed and dated copy of this by the person who assessed her. Somebody cannot just declare this to be the case, they have to have the official documentation in front of them and complete it with the reasons why they have reached this decision. In our case we took the forms to the DR who was really helpfull and completed them. When you apply for a court of protection order then you can have more than one deputy so that could be a compromise? You do have inform people close to your mum that you are applying for the court order - it's four or five people i recall and should ideally be those closest in decending order BUT if there is a reason why you do not want somebody informed then you have the option of recording why. In my case, i should of, in theory informed my uncles only daughter that i was applying but she had cleared his bank account of £22,000 and disappeared.
If you do have a court order then the persons bank accounts will be closed and put into something called a deputy account - a new card is issued in your name not theirs and also a cheque book. There are 3 security levels with a court order dependent on how much income the person has and all transactions have to be recorded and justified so nobody can take advantage - security levels 1 and 2 mean you have to submit yearly accounts and level 3 you don't generally have to provide a report but must keep records incase they request them.
Hope that helps!
J
Jakester
Can I just confirm this with you. I read that you say when capacity test carried out and person fails they (SW/whoever) must give a written copy of the findings, do i read this correctly?
As a family, dad & I feel as though we are constantly being removed from the loop, a process a hospital employee best described "they put the old people on a conveyor belt and never let them get off". I have been present at capacity tests, I have also been excluded from them. When I have been present mum has clearly passed but SW has indicated that she hasn't, then backed off when questions were asked/challenged (in one case by another SW!) , we have also attended a meeting where the previous capacity test clearly indicated that mum had passed but the SW was saying she did not have capacity. Another test then confirmed she passed. I have been obtaining notes and there is no indication of mum failing capacity test when she is not drugged (not drugged by me!!!......). We were never given a copy of the paperwork, no care plans or anything else. I'm just finding out through TP that things might have been a bit amiss.
Could you confirm that I read your post right, I want to ask a few questions from those who carry out these things. Are the rules writtten down anywhere that can be accessed?
Thanks. I think this might be of use to a number of people.
Can I just confirm this with you. I read that you say when capacity test carried out and person fails they (SW/whoever) must give a written copy of the findings, do i read this correctly?
As a family, dad & I feel as though we are constantly being removed from the loop, a process a hospital employee best described "they put the old people on a conveyor belt and never let them get off". I have been present at capacity tests, I have also been excluded from them. When I have been present mum has clearly passed but SW has indicated that she hasn't, then backed off when questions were asked/challenged (in one case by another SW!) , we have also attended a meeting where the previous capacity test clearly indicated that mum had passed but the SW was saying she did not have capacity. Another test then confirmed she passed. I have been obtaining notes and there is no indication of mum failing capacity test when she is not drugged (not drugged by me!!!......
). We were never given a copy of the paperwork, no care plans or anything else. I'm just finding out through TP that things might have been a bit amiss.Could you confirm that I read your post right, I want to ask a few questions from those who carry out these things. Are the rules writtten down anywhere that can be accessed?
Thanks. I think this might be of use to a number of people.
Jakester is right - a record must be kept on the file when an assessment of mental capacity is made, especially if a major decision is required. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 requires all decisions to be made 'in the best interests' of someone who may have a fluctuating capacity to make decisions themselves. If it's a relatively minor decision, the paperwork may not be required - but it is most definitely required whenever major decisions are to be made, and especially if there is likely to be any challenge to the decision by family members, for example.
If you Google, you can easily find details of the requirements for your own area of the country. Try Googling for "recording mental capacity assessments" (or anything similar) and if you add your own region, you should come across the local procedures/forms.
Here's one, plucked at random, for Bath & North East Somerset:
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/SiteColle...are/Mental Capacity Assessment Form 09 09.pdf
And here's the form required for 'a best interest' decision-making, for same region:
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/SiteColle...re/MCA Best Interest decision form 09 09.pdf
Both taken from here: http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/healthandsocial/mentalcapacityact/Pages/default.aspx
Here's more info from Devon: http://www.devon.gov.uk/face_example_of_mcabia_assessment.pdf
They aren't connected with my own area at all, but the paperwork is similar, although much more detailed in my own case.
It is a legal requirement too, that paperwork is kept - if only to protect the best interests of the 'decision maker' who may be a SW, or C/H manager.
Hope that helps.
If you Google, you can easily find details of the requirements for your own area of the country. Try Googling for "recording mental capacity assessments" (or anything similar) and if you add your own region, you should come across the local procedures/forms.
Here's one, plucked at random, for Bath & North East Somerset:
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/SiteColle...are/Mental Capacity Assessment Form 09 09.pdf
And here's the form required for 'a best interest' decision-making, for same region:
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/SiteColle...re/MCA Best Interest decision form 09 09.pdf
Both taken from here: http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/healthandsocial/mentalcapacityact/Pages/default.aspx
Here's more info from Devon: http://www.devon.gov.uk/face_example_of_mcabia_assessment.pdf
They aren't connected with my own area at all, but the paperwork is similar, although much more detailed in my own case.
It is a legal requirement too, that paperwork is kept - if only to protect the best interests of the 'decision maker' who may be a SW, or C/H manager.
Hope that helps.
Just kept on file or an actual copy being given to person/family? Specific reason for this.
The form is filled in after the assessment i assume? Or is it filled in as the assessment progresses?
The form is filled in after the assessment i assume? Or is it filled in as the assessment progresses?
NeverGiveUp, I would doubt that the form is filled in during the assessment, because the person assessing is required to carry out the assessment in a place where the 'patient' (for want of a better word) is comfortable and at ease. That could be walking round a garden, for instance.
I'd also doubt that a copy of the completed form would be given to the person, if the assessment concludes that they don't have the capacity to engage with the decision required. But if the person is deemed to have capacity, at the end of the assessment, that person could ask for a copy, I would like to think.
If you have LPA for health and welfare, you could also ask for a copy.
I asked for a copy - even tho' we had no LPA in place - and it was given to us. I know of other people who have also asked and received, but I don't think that would apply to all family members and I don't think that family members would have an automatic right to a copy. Patient confidentiality and all that.
Paragraph 4.60 onwards of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 'Code of Practice' may help you, and there's also info about how to challenge the outcome of an assessment:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_186484.pdf
I'd also doubt that a copy of the completed form would be given to the person, if the assessment concludes that they don't have the capacity to engage with the decision required. But if the person is deemed to have capacity, at the end of the assessment, that person could ask for a copy, I would like to think.
If you have LPA for health and welfare, you could also ask for a copy.
I asked for a copy - even tho' we had no LPA in place - and it was given to us. I know of other people who have also asked and received, but I don't think that would apply to all family members and I don't think that family members would have an automatic right to a copy. Patient confidentiality and all that.
Paragraph 4.60 onwards of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 'Code of Practice' may help you, and there's also info about how to challenge the outcome of an assessment:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_186484.pdf
Re: my other thread: 'social services say I can't make a complaint'.
Since my last entry where I disclosed I had been accused of safeguarding issues I feel like I've been deserted on here and and as the saying goes 'no smoke without fire', people assume there must be some truth in it.
There's absolutely no element of truth in it and I really feel like giving up the ghost on this because whatever I seem to do to protect my mum from losing all independence and the will to live, I am up against a SW and her compatriots who will latch onto anything that can be tailored to suit the term 'issues' in a bid to have shot of me. They won't be satisfied until my mum is a total prisoner and is visited now and again by family members who won't say a dickybird.
Since my last entry where I disclosed I had been accused of safeguarding issues I feel like I've been deserted on here and and as the saying goes 'no smoke without fire', people assume there must be some truth in it.
There's absolutely no element of truth in it and I really feel like giving up the ghost on this because whatever I seem to do to protect my mum from losing all independence and the will to live, I am up against a SW and her compatriots who will latch onto anything that can be tailored to suit the term 'issues' in a bid to have shot of me. They won't be satisfied until my mum is a total prisoner and is visited now and again by family members who won't say a dickybird.
Oh, please don't feel like that Classact. Big hug I don't post on your thread because I don't have anything useful to add, but that doesn't mean that I think you are guilty of anything except trying to do the best for your mum.
I don't post on your thread because I don't have anything useful to add, but that doesn't mean that I think you are guilty of anything except trying to do the best for your mum.classact72
Take my word for it, I don't doubt you. We have been to Hell and back with SS and the hospital. If you haven't been on the receiving end of things you really don't have a clue what can happen, it is shocking.
Do i judge you classact72? Damned right I do, I'm backing anyone who stands up to the system, just watch out what the system does to you, watch your back.
Take my word for it, I don't doubt you. We have been to Hell and back with SS and the hospital. If you haven't been on the receiving end of things you really don't have a clue what can happen, it is shocking.
Do i judge you classact72? Damned right I do, I'm backing anyone who stands up to the system, just watch out what the system does to you, watch your back.
We do believe you, classact. The trouble is, like Peggy says, most of us haven't been in this awful situation so don't really know how it would be best to proceed. I've had very little dealings with SS over the years, so really can't advise.
Rest assured though, you do have our support.
Is there such a thing as an ombudsman for social services? Oh look! There is..
Local Government Ombudsman.
Not sure if they cover your type of problem but they might be able to direct you to someone who would listen and advise.
Rest assured though, you do have our support.
Is there such a thing as an ombudsman for social services? Oh look! There is..
Local Government Ombudsman.
Not sure if they cover your type of problem but they might be able to direct you to someone who would listen and advise.
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It's not an Ombudsman for social services as such. It's the Ombudsman for all complaints about the service provided by Local Authorities.
"The Local Government Ombudsman looks at complaints about councils and some other authorities and organisations, including education admissions appeal panels and adult social care providers (such as care homes and home care providers). It is a free service. Our job is to investigate complaints in a fair and independent way - we do not take sides."
However, you can't go to the Ombudsman unless and until you've worked your way through each and every stage of the 'formal complaints' procedure. I think classact is a long way off that, at present.
"If you have a complaint, the first thing to do is complain to the council or care provider. You can find out how to complain from the council or care provider, or you can ask a councillor to help, if your complaint is against a council. In most cases, the body complained about must have a chance to sort out the complaint before we can consider it. Councils and care providers often have more than one stage in their complaints procedure. You will usually need to complete all stages before we will look at your complaint."
Then, it can take the LGO years to get to the end of your complaint, so if you want 'instant action' the LGO is not the place to go.
If you want a slow resolution to an ongoing complaitn, you can try the LGO, but again, don't hold your breath.
The LGO passes your complaint back to the department/service/persons you are complaining about - and then is only allowed to decide whether there has been some kind of 'maladministration'.
I would not recommend the LGO as the place to go to achieve a solution to the kind of problem that classact72 is dealing with.
Fair enough. Sorry, classact
I note it mentions
Any merit in getting hold of a copy of the LA's complaints procedure?
Thanks to all for the kind words of support.
I have a copy of the complaints procedure and followed the first step. No response other than acknowledgement but two days later a letter turns up in my mailbox from a senior practitioner that is full of allegations, accusations and threats which are obviously designed to scare the pants off of those it has been sent to. There is not an element of truth in any of it nor a shred of evidence but I don't doubt a few things will be written down now and claimed they were documented a while back. I have taken legal advice and responded asking if any of these allegations relate to me and if so I require evidence of the justification for their assertions. Not heard a thing yet but then they haven't had time to decide whether to tell me if they are actually accusing me of anything. they know they will need to be careful in doing so because they would have to come up with proof which they can't possibly have because I have done nothing untowards. The only thing they could go on is fabricated verbal claims by those who are trying to cover up their own misgivings; very doubtful that such would stand up in a court of law if legally challenged.
I have a copy of the complaints procedure and followed the first step. No response other than acknowledgement but two days later a letter turns up in my mailbox from a senior practitioner that is full of allegations, accusations and threats which are obviously designed to scare the pants off of those it has been sent to. There is not an element of truth in any of it nor a shred of evidence but I don't doubt a few things will be written down now and claimed they were documented a while back. I have taken legal advice and responded asking if any of these allegations relate to me and if so I require evidence of the justification for their assertions. Not heard a thing yet but then they haven't had time to decide whether to tell me if they are actually accusing me of anything. they know they will need to be careful in doing so because they would have to come up with proof which they can't possibly have because I have done nothing untowards. The only thing they could go on is fabricated verbal claims by those who are trying to cover up their own misgivings; very doubtful that such would stand up in a court of law if legally challenged.
So far the replies we've had are from 8 different people!
Still not had a reply to my query about who the allegations are aimed at and if at me to come up with evidence or an apology if not. It's all falsehoods and they are either worried to death about making such accusations that were designed to frighten the pants off those of us who are challenging unethical behaviour or they are plotting some concocted story.
I've written again and asked to clarify who they are referring to and nothing. Basically they are ignoring my complaint!
My sister asked the same question, got fed up with no response so sent it again to complaints dept and has just got an email back stating the person she sent it to and head of service are looking into both hers' and my complaint.
Should they be disclosing to my sister that I've made a complaint? What happened to confidentiality? Secondly, the person she complained to was the head of service so how can there be two?
I've also looked at mum's care plan and couldn't believe what was written in there!
A member of staff had recorded that family members ask for cups of tea, quote: 'even when we are busy'. I was fuming about this. Not only because in the brochure I read something along the lines of : 'families of residents will find xxxxx is like home from home'. Apart from that, most of the time a particular carer has offered us tea and brought in biscuits too. Only once have I ever asked for a drink and that was when refreshments were being made for the residents. Besides that, couldn't the staff speak up and say ' sorry we are busy?'
Another example was when my sister asked a carer whether they thought the industrial soap powder commonly used in care homes could possibly be making Mum's eczema worse. What was recorded is that my sister accused the home of making Mum's legs worse by using industrial soap powder.
Adding to that, the records were not chronological; evident that some of the recording had certainly been added at a much later date.
I have since spoken to the care home manager about the pettiness of her staff and whether these comments should be in her care plan. A week later and the notes have been re-written, are now chronological but include a typed letter to the SW stating my sister had referred to the residents as 'demented'. My sister works would not use such terminology and certainly not to her detriment when she is a carer herself.
What on earth is SS and the care home playing at? Apart from us being distressed at nearly losing our Mum on two occasions and trying to come to terms with her dementia, we have all this to contend with!
There are thoughts about going to the media with the whole story!
Still not had a reply to my query about who the allegations are aimed at and if at me to come up with evidence or an apology if not. It's all falsehoods and they are either worried to death about making such accusations that were designed to frighten the pants off those of us who are challenging unethical behaviour or they are plotting some concocted story.
I've written again and asked to clarify who they are referring to and nothing. Basically they are ignoring my complaint!
My sister asked the same question, got fed up with no response so sent it again to complaints dept and has just got an email back stating the person she sent it to and head of service are looking into both hers' and my complaint.
Should they be disclosing to my sister that I've made a complaint? What happened to confidentiality? Secondly, the person she complained to was the head of service so how can there be two?
I've also looked at mum's care plan and couldn't believe what was written in there!
A member of staff had recorded that family members ask for cups of tea, quote: 'even when we are busy'. I was fuming about this. Not only because in the brochure I read something along the lines of : 'families of residents will find xxxxx is like home from home'. Apart from that, most of the time a particular carer has offered us tea and brought in biscuits too. Only once have I ever asked for a drink and that was when refreshments were being made for the residents. Besides that, couldn't the staff speak up and say ' sorry we are busy?'
Another example was when my sister asked a carer whether they thought the industrial soap powder commonly used in care homes could possibly be making Mum's eczema worse. What was recorded is that my sister accused the home of making Mum's legs worse by using industrial soap powder.
Adding to that, the records were not chronological; evident that some of the recording had certainly been added at a much later date.
I have since spoken to the care home manager about the pettiness of her staff and whether these comments should be in her care plan. A week later and the notes have been re-written, are now chronological but include a typed letter to the SW stating my sister had referred to the residents as 'demented'. My sister works would not use such terminology and certainly not to her detriment when she is a carer herself.
What on earth is SS and the care home playing at? Apart from us being distressed at nearly losing our Mum on two occasions and trying to come to terms with her dementia, we have all this to contend with!
There are thoughts about going to the media with the whole story!
