The State to manage Mums finances?

classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
I asked for an assessment of my 86 yr old Mother's mental capacity to manage her finances as one of the family was taking advantage of her forgetfulness to get large amounts of money from her. This assessment was carried out in May by a Social worker and her superior on their first meeting with my Mother and took one hour. No further assessment has taken place and the SW has only met with Mum on one additional occasion. A family group conference was set up for next week but cancelled yesterday as certain siblings who are making the situation a personal battle rather than do what's in the best interests of my Mother, refused the invitation to attend. The Social worker has cancelled the meeting even though two siblings and my Mother, with her advocate, are still willing to attend. Does this not make a farce of a supposed voluntary meeting and deny my Mother the opportunity and right to express her wishes that she would like me to continue managing her finances as I have done since she broke her hip and was hospitalised 4 months ago?
After a broken hip and subsequent replacement in March this year my Mother has become forgetful but not to the extent that she cannot make any decisions. The Social Worker can deem her able to do so when it suits convenience like rushing to get her into a care home, while giving myself and another sister who both work full-time 24 hours to find alternative provision. If not, my Mother was going to be placed by Social Services in a place that is convenient for other family members. She states my mother is capable of making a decision about where she wants to live and I agree but cannot understand why it is thought she is unable to make an informed decision about who manages her finances.
I visit my Mother everyday, one sister visits regularly (the others rarely bother) and we think we are in a prime position to assess whether she is capable of nominating a family member to manage her finances. After saying it many times and insistent that (to quote her words) 'I may forget things but I'm not stupid where I can't make a decision about who looks after my money and savings' she is quite clearly aware of what she wants.
Irrespective of this, the Social worker has informed that the State will be managing her finances once she confirms my Mother lacks the capacity to do so through an assessment she intends to carry out next week. I feel she does not support my Mother in making a decision but confuses her and asks leading questions which results in my Mother giving answers that contradict her actual wishes.
This is making my Mum worry and it's not good for her. I am not happy with the way the SW seems to have already decided what the outcome of the assessment will be. Is there any way I can be present or get an independent witness to the assessment process the SW intends to carry out?
I feel she has been biased towards certain sisters insofar as providing them with information which myself and another sibling only received a week later after requesting. In addition she stated the LA would only pay a limited amount for a care home placement yet when a certain sister found a place convenient to her the SW was prepared to find an extra £70 but denied that opportunity to us when we suggested prospective residential accommodation.
How do I go about appealing against the SW decisions. I aim to put in a complaint but how can I be assured the Local Authority won't favour their own employee?
 

Big Effort

Account Closed
Jul 8, 2012
1,927
0
Hello ClassAct,
I can't comment on what you write because I live in France, so my experience is not relevant to you. I am replying because I notice that no one else has replied to you, to bring this post back up the top of the list, and hopefully others can make a comment.

It is such a shame that age and money become so contentious. Surely it is the well-being of the individual that counts. I have had siblings wanting to manage finances from the wings..... very stressful for me as a caregiver. The social worker warned me of two things when dealing with dementia: One, I will lose my mother more and more to this horrible disease, and Two, to work hard at family relationships as grief/greed make the worst of us emerge, and I could face a double loss, namely that of family. I keep this in mind, and have asked them all to be especially careful to maintain family bonds despite the stress and grief.

Hope you get a few more answers tonight. Keep posting!
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
Classact,

I think you will find that, because you said that one of your siblings was abusing your mother financially, that it was always going to be the case that someone else would take responsibility for managing her finances. This is normally how the court of protection plays things when there is potential arguments between siblings etc regarding finances. They also have the option of appointing an independent advisor but this is normally when there is a substantial estate to be managed over a period of time.

If I were you, if you don't have a lawyer, then I would go to the Citizens Advice Bureau and ask them to explain what should happen so that you can make sure that the SW is doing things above board. Off the top of my head, then I would be asking the SW whether your mother has the capacity to manage her own affairs (this has to be decided by a medical person not a SW) and if she does have capacity then there should (check with the CAB) be no reason why your mother can't appoint you as her power of attorney. If she doesn't have capacity then someone (I assume this is what the SW/Local Authority are intending to do) can apply to the court of protection to become your mum's deputy for estate and finance purposes. As there is a potential dispute between siblings then it could be the court of protection would grant the deputyship to someone like the Local Authority anyway. Irrespective of what happens, it all has to be done and managed in the best interests or your mum as required under Law.

Rather than getting the SW's back up, please try and work with them to understand what they are intending to do and why. It can't be easy for them either if the family are all at loggerheads over things and are not pulling together. Like you said, you've looked after your mum's interests for a while now and you can continue to do that by working closely with the SW. This is how you can ensure that your mum's interests are met to the widest extent possible.

Hope this helps,

Fiona
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
As I understand it. Giving POA, the person granting it must, at the time of signing, understand what they are signing. I took mum to her GP. He talked to her on her own and mum signed the form and then he did. Again, as I understand it, it doesn't matter if they forget all about it later. My mum when asked who she wants to look after her money, always says "you 2jays, take my bank statements and sort them out will you" - I have been POA for 2 years :)
 

NeverGiveUp

Registered User
May 17, 2011
1,034
0
FiFiMo

You mentioned an independant adviser who can be appointed, what is that? I've heard of the council taking people over, is the adviser from the council or something else?


classact72
I believe some solicitors have the authority to carry out capacity tests.

You can be present when the person has the test, when mum's capacity has been tested I have been there but stood just behind her so as not to be accused of influencing the test. Some sw do seem to influence the person, you also have to be very cautious if they haven't been in the country too long, if the person being tested uses vernacular terminology the sw may not understand that, also the customs of this country can be different, we have experienced this.

I would be very interested to know what the result of this is, could you keep us updated on progress.

Good Luck
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
NeverGiveUp

By Independent Advisor I meant someone appointed by the court of protection, sometimes a solicitor, sometimes and accountant, to manage the financial affairs/assets rather than it being granted to a relative or a Local Authority. This can be done for example when someone, say, within the family disagrees with a Deputyship being awarded. Like I said, though, this is often only done when there is a considerable estate involved as the advisors who are appointed are entitled to charge for their time which over a period of years could be a substantial amount of money.

Fiona
 
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classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
2nd assessment was supposed to be today at 9:15. My sister and I asked Mum's social services senior practitioner if we could be present and were told we could. I arrived early to help Mum dress and hey presto the SW and her superior arrived 25 mins earlier than specified and asked to speak with mum on her own. I presumed they wanted to get her consent for us to be present so agreed to it. My sister overheard them questioning mum about her bank card so at that point we began eavesdropping and could quite clearly hear them questioning her about where her bank card was and where she thought she had put it etc. We could hear Mum getting frustrated and saying it was in her purse but she had confused this with the loyalty cards I had placed in a new purse just before the SW arrived. Upon this I knocked the door and interrupted asking why they were questioning mum and had obviously confused and upset her. They asked to speak with us in a separate room and changed the subject saying that a staff member of the care home had heard raised voices coming from mums room the previous night and there was safeguarding concerns. We were flabbergasted! Basically, my sister had bought mum a new walker and we were encouraging her to try it out but she didn't have her hand on the brake. When my sister tried to show her my Mum became cantankerous, waved her arms and shouted at her. My sister told her off for being so nasty; quote: 'Mum don't talk to us like that'. That's all it was and they've made it out to be along the lines of a blazing row and indirectly suggest that we could be stopped seeing our Mother over it.
The staff member who reported it doesn't like us because my sister, who works in a care home herself, checks whether my Mum has been given her meds and has had diprobase on her legs each day after it had been missed several times.
I became upset and told the SW's that they shouldnt be asking leading questions to get specific answers from my mum and said I was not happy with the way they were conducting the assessment. They said they were not assessing Mum at the time but they quite clearly were. We went back to Mum's room and at this point they said we could not be present at the assessment and gave the reason as they did not want us there. We told Mum and she asked to speak with the SW's but they refused and went into the communal dining area. My Mum got her walker and stormed after them and challenged them about taking away her independence and insinuating she was incapable of making decisions. My Mother made it clear that she was not happy that my sister and I were not allowed to be present at the assessment they had arranged to undertake and then cancelled today and in addition was clearly very distressed with the inference that there had been a blazing row between us the night before.
My Mum's advocate turned up after the SW's had left and I asked why she had not be there to represent/support Mum. She told us she had not been invited.
We are lost as to what to do about this SW and her superior as well as the care home staff member who doesnt like us. The care home Manager is ok with us but seems wary of the SW and tends to keep in her good books.
My mum wants us present at assessment but the SW says she will go back when we arent there. Now mum is threatening to walk out of the home.
It's been a bad day for her and my sister is worried to deathe she will be stopped from visting because of these false allegations by a carer who doesn't like us.
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
Hiya Classact,

What a carry on from the SWs! My first reaction on reading things was to ask how good your mum's advocate is. Would you trust them to be present during the assessment? I think that under the Mental Health Act that your mum is entitled to have someone with her to help her when any kind of discussion is going on, particularly assessments etc. You might want to check online and see what is said with regards to that.

With regards to the safeguarding issue, the line I would take is "If XXX was so concerned about my mother's safety why did she not enter the room or get someone else to enter the room". I would say that in your opinion the reporting of it to SW is not only malicious but that her actions belie her words of concern. IF there had been a safeguarding issue going on then you are now concerned that nothing would have been done to protect your mother. I would ask if the incident was reported to anyone other that the SW and if so what did they do about it to try and resolve the issue? Firstly I would tell this to the care home manager and secondly I would write to the Hd of Social Services about not only this, but the fact that the SWs badly treated your mum and left her in a seriously distressed state. I would also point out that the assessment request was initiated by you and why would you make such a request if you didn't have your mum's best interests at heart. Say that you find it strange that you and your sister were almost treated like villains when both of you had taken time off work to support your mum and had previously been invited to attend the assessment.

Before you send the letter off, speak to the CAB and ask them whether your mother has the right to refuse to be assessed by these people or whether you can instruct the home that they are not to be allowed to speak to your mother unless someone else is present. That someone else could be the advocate.

Whatever you decide to do, then I would do it quickly so that things can potentially be nipped in the bud and not allowed to get out of hand when the SW's get back to their office!

You have my sympathies and if there is anything we can do to help then just give us a shout.

Fiona
 

classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
Thanks for your kind words.
We certainly are being made to look like villains because we challenge everything. The Manager and a couple of members of staff at the care home don't like us because we've questioned why things have not been logged in Mum's care plan, she hasn't been receiving certain treatments and why issues and incidents such as vomiting 5 times in an hour aren't being recorded. As a result they are happy to collude with the SW to bring us down.
To be honest since March my sister and I (who both work full-time) are with Mum everyday and we've had to make major adjustments in our lives to do that. My other two sisters who do not work rarely visit Mum yet have all the time in the world to do so. They are looked upon as the 'good guys' merely because they don't contest anything.
What would happen to our parents if people like my sister and I weren't around to fight their corner?
 

NeverGiveUp

Registered User
May 17, 2011
1,034
0
Have you/your mum tried to get hold of the SS notes? If it doesn't rock the boat too much at this stage it might be an idea to see what they have written.

FiFiMo
A query 4 you, when it says that another person can be present during an assesment, does that incluse assessment by an advocate? Claims were made by an advocate appointed by SW that didn't seem to tally up, these claims wer made by advocate at meeting attended by SS. We had not been allowed in the room when advocate spoke to mum. The advocate's manager attended the meeting as well for some reason, a sw at a later meeting mentioned him and laughed about him as they knew him well, there seemed to be some sort of private joke. I had an advocate from another organisation there who heard what the SW said.

It worries me that classact72 advocate took that stance, is the advocate from an organisation funded by Ss or nhs?

I agree fully with the comment of people fighting the corner for others, the thought of what happens to those who have no-one is worrying.
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
Nevergiveup,

I was just recalling something that I thought I had read. You'd have to read the Mental Health Act and the adults with incapacity too to get the specific details, which is why i recommended that classact did this to be sure of her facts. You are right though about questioning any advocacy service about their involvement with Social Services as a number of them are on call off Contracts. As you have described, you want someone who is independent don't you - not someone that is trying to please 2 masters.

Fiona
 

classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
I haven't asked to see the SS notes but I can guarantee if I did the SW would say she's asked my Mum if confidential information can be looked at by family and in her opinion my Mum was quite clearly able to make a decision that she didn't want anyone to see them.
This is what I am up against. This SW always says my Mum is able to make a decision that suits her purpose and convenience.
It transpires than on Monday my Aunt stupidly took Mum's to the bank and got her to order a new credit card and cancel the current debit card I've looked after since large amounts were being requested by family members. So now I can no longer supervise what she withdraws or spends and hey presto, the family who have not bothered with her since they couldn't get a penny from her when I took supervision of her money/savings have suddenly reappeared! I've informed the SW and raised concerns that I fear Mum could be taken advantage of again and asked her to intervene so it doesn't happen but she's not replied. She did however, send all siblings an email yesterday stating she was having a meeting with senior management and the legal team today and will let us know the outcome. Not sure what that's about??
 

NeverGiveUp

Registered User
May 17, 2011
1,034
0
Your mum has to request the notes for the information dept of the council, there is a form to fill in for this request, I think there needs to be the signature of GP if she has dounbtful capacity. If she is able to sign a form now, keep a copy annd it can be used in the future as an indicator of her wishes.

From experience, looking at the notes made by SW can be a shock, seriously important things left out, other things put in which aren't as you remember them, some things easily disprovable. Well worth getting hold of these notes, also make sure you get ALL the notes, there seems to be memory loss sometimes and important things have been 'forgotten' and aren't sent out :rolleyes:
 

classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
I have no chance of getting any notes. As soon as I get my Mum to sign any form the SW checks with her and she can't remember signing it although at the time knows what she is doing. Secondly she no longer has her own GP but has one linked to the care home.
:0(
 

Jakester

Registered User
Aug 2, 2012
7
0
South Derbyshire
Hi,

You don't need the SW involvement on whether or not your mum can make a power of attorney or if a court protection order can be applied for. Your mums doctor can assess her under the 2006 mental health guidelines (you can view these online and its better to print them off ready for the doctor or pre warn the receptionist this is what the visit is about as they will book you a longer appt). If the doctor states she is not mentally impaired then book your mum in with a solicitor and get yourself the POA. If she is declared as lacking in mental capacity then you can apply to the royal courts of justice for a court protection order in which you are made deputy. Again these forms are available online. They can be complicated to understand but the helpline is very good and always ask for the fast tracking option as even that takes 6months+

If your mum agrees then you can cancel any cards with the bank immediately, just explain and they will put a block on any use. If she lacks mental capacity then most banks will do the same and take your word for it until you can provide them with a copy of the court order.

Try and avoid using a solicitor to sort out the court protection order as they charge a fortune.

If anyone in your family objects to you being appointed but your mum has expressed her wish then it's unlikely it will influence things - your mum will be asked her opinion and if you clearly state the issue with money already missing then they will take this into account. I'm deputy for my uncle and his only daughter accessed his bank accounts and took all of his money then cleared off prior to my involvement. I wrote all of this on the application form and my uncle supported the statement.

It sounds very bizzare behaviour by the Social Worker - they have no legal right to be doing the things you have described.

Hope things get resolved!
 

classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
Hi Jakester,
I have been down the route of POA but the SW said it was too late because her assessment done back in May 2012 is evidence that Mum doesn't have the mental capacity to nominate. Re: deputyship certain siblings will object just because they want to win a battle and I've been advised by a solicitor that it would be upheld as there's a 50/50 split. Mum doesn't have her own GP anyway, it is one linked to the home and to be quite honest her mind is deteriorating so I don't think she would come across too well now. All too late I'm afraid.
However, that wont stop me fighting my Mum's corner to ensure she doesn't get taken advantage of. I have asked the care home Manager to intercept any post from the bank to stop her getting hold of her card but the bank know her and she was able to withdraw without a card on Monday by answering security questions. I have contacted them to inform of the situation and said I don't have POA but have a copy of the assessment stating my Mum lacks mental capacity to nominate I can email them but they won't do anything, saying only the account holder is authorised to cancel her cards so I haven't been able to put a block on any use.
Fortunately concerns were raised about the family member having only a couple of hundred pounds so they haven't been able to get anything as I took charge of Mum's debit cards straight after I was alerted.
Could you clarify what you mean by:
It sounds very bizzare behaviour by the Social Worker - they have no legal right to be doing the things you have described.

I'd like things resolved so I can have some semblance of a life without all this worry.
thanks for all the support!
 

NeverGiveUp

Registered User
May 17, 2011
1,034
0
Because one person deems a person not to have capapcity on one occasion it does not mean that the person lacks capacity all the time. A person is deemed to have capacity unless it is proved otherwise, with dementia people have good times and bad times until they really vanish. What you have described doesn't sound as though she has vanished.

Jakester questioned about the Sw, I don't like what I hear either.

If the bank has been told that their client doesn't have capacity and they still give out money, they are in a very difficult position i would have thought. if someone 'helps' a person without capacity to empty their account, I would have thought that there was a question of liability of the bank staff. has the manager told his/her staff? If they actually know mum then it does make things sound even worse. Unless they believe she has capacity and is acting in a sound, rational way. If so, where does that leave the SW?

capacity tests seem to be very subjective, I have seen quite a few take place now and I am not impressed. Questions that have no relelvance to the person or answers that are given that the SW didn't understand (non UK National SW, colloquial English answers).

I was in a meeting several years ago, nothing to do with health, a number of people there who I knew, several police officers also, one of the people present had been given a capacity test and failed, he could not understand it. He remembered all the questions and fired them at the people in the room, he remembered them and had no capacity :confused:), we all failed the test, police included, the questions had no relevance to us, none of us cared who the politicians were in WWII or any of the other things which were asked in conjunction with 'remember 4 words'. Makes you think, doesn't it...:rolleyes:
 

classact72

Registered User
Jul 27, 2012
32
0
Re: Because one person deems a person not to have capapcity on one occasion it does not mean that the person lacks capacity all the time. A person is deemed to have capacity unless it is proved otherwise, with dementia people have good times and bad times until they really vanish.
I have been quoting that but the SW, who has seen her twice in 4 months, says she lacks the capacity to manage her own finances but not to decide where she lives. In other words, Mum is clear in her decisions if it suits and is convenient to the SW.
I'm not disputing that Mum isn't forgetful and it would be stupidity for her to continue managing her finances alone but she could do so jointly with someone trustworthy.

I've since visited her bank and told the manager she doesn't have capacity but they said they can't stop her doing what she wants with her money. I've told them I will hold them responsible if her accounts are wiped out and they have agreed to make staff aware but still wont put a block on lasrge withdrawals and say she could go to any cashpoint and take £200 per day. difficult position i would have thought. if someone 'helps' a person without capacity to empty their account.
Good point that if she is acting in a sound, rational way and the bank think she has the capacity where does that leave the SW?

When I visited Mum earlier today she couldnt remember being at my sister's house all day yesterday but told me that two ladies have asked her some questions and they said she has nothing wrong with her memory. It makes me wonder if the SW didn't get my other 2 sisters to consent to an assessment in their presence and am livid if they did because that is not only underhand but suggests the SW favours them purely because they would not dare question or challenge her method of questioning.
We are not sure whether there are decisions being made behind our backs or it's Mum's confusion with events that is causing us to think there is.
Irrespective of which it is, could the SW do that and exclude us totally?