Power of Attorney

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by AndyW, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. AndyW

    AndyW Registered User

    Dec 31, 2015
    I am new to this group and I really need advice before I go into a solicitors like a ill informed bull in an china shop.

    Ok my grandmother of 97 years old has recently started to show signs of dementia. This was brought on by chronic Kidney disease. Basically the kidneys failing and the toxins poisoning her brain and causing delirium/dementia. The doctors saying that an underlying slight dementia could possibly have been present.

    Ok my problem, if you like, i stay in Northern Ireland and have done for many years , my grandmother stays in Glasgow. I have visited regularly and keep in contact via the phone. Both my grandfather and my mother are dead. Now I have a 2nd cousin, my grandmothers great nephew, who started off visiting every Thursday for a couple of hours at night just to keep an eye on things. As time progressed these visit changed and became more regular mainly due to a fall my grandmother had where she injured her back, climbing up to dust plates of all things. I was not informed of this accident at the request of my grand mother. i duely found out and as you can imagine i was furious.

    At this point I should mention I have an uncle my mothers brother who has been unofficially disowned by the family due to his criminal acts against my grandmother. I appologise at this point for going on and on its very complicated.

    Now this cousin I mentioned, the last time I was over, was fit to tell me he had POA over my grandmother and that he had changed the will that had been put in place supposedly to ensure this uncle of mine ( my second cousins first cousin) got the bare minimum under Scottish law, which I am lead to believe automatically gives rights to surviving children especially males.

    Now here is the crux of all this, at the start of this month my grandmother was admitted as an emergency to the hospital with what they thought was a suspected stroke,, it turned out it was the kidneys that shut down and cause a comatose state. This i am told is a like a self protection measure the body does. My grandmother then the next morning wakes up like nothing had happened physically but she was talking gibberish ,, that it was 1947 she was in the desert and she had food but it was pedigree chum ,,,and she did not recognise any of us.

    Now ,,, her kidneys seem to be functioning now at 40% but her mind has gone. I asked my wife if she would be ok if I toke my grandmother in to live with us ,, something that my grandmother had continually refused to do as she didnt want to be a burden. My wife agreed to have my grandmother come to be with us. BUT my cousin says no he says she has to stay there and go into a medical facility. Now I dont know how long my grandmother has left but certainly dont want her spending her last days in the company of real as opposed to perceived strangers.

    My question after all that is there any way I can challenge this POA ? On the grounds of I wasnt notified or that prior to all this I was next of kin and primary carer ( I spent months on end with my grandmother when my mother died and also when my grandfather died) My cousin has also made veiled threats regarding the will (which was changed to make him major beneficiary except for the house which I bought with my grandmother an automatically transfers over to me).

    i was given order by my grandmother as to what was to happen who was to get what etc etc as I was the sole beneficiary , Now it seems even that has been updated or changed with a little persuasion.

    Now some may see this as me trying just to get my grandmothers money or estate ,, thats not true as I have never taken (unlike the rest of my family) a penny piece, except in a birthday or Christmas card, from my gran. As I said I was the one that gave her the money to buy her home after nearly 70years renting. The rest never bothered it was always too much trouble ,,,now they all sniff death and swarming ready for the feeding frenzy.

    I just want to carry out her wishes and see that what ever time she has left confused or other wise has a good quality of life, if that means letting the rest of the vermin fight over a few pound then so be it.

    Please help if you can

  2. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    I don't know whether or not there is a requirement to notify anybody when an LPA is applied for, there is no such requirement in England, the view taken is that the donor is expressing their wishes. The only challenges in England are that the donor lacked capacity at the time of signing or that the donor was being was pressurised into choice of attorney.

    You say the cousin has changed your grandmother's will, I doubt that Scottish law allows him to do this using the POA, if not the new will would have to have been signed by your grandmother. The question is did she have testamentary capacity at the time of signing?
  3. Maggie42

    Maggie42 Registered User

    Mar 7, 2011
    East Midlands
    in England you can choose up to 5 people to be told re POA. This gives people you know an opportunity to raise any concerns or objections. If this part is left blank two people need to sign the certificate to confirm understanding.
    I hope this helps.
  4. tigerlady

    tigerlady Registered User

    Nov 29, 2015
    My husband and I completed EPA's for each other in September 2007, when he was showing signs of dementia (although not admitting it, still doesnt) before they got replaced with LPA's and the rules were probably completely different then, as you didnt have to register them until the person had lost capacity.

    However, when I registered the EPA for him inn 2014 I had to write letters to the 5 closest relatives informing them of the registration and there is a certain amount of time for them to object before the EPA is registered

    Also I'm pretty sure that if a person has lost capacity to understand a legal document and lost capacity to sign it, I dont think a person with POA can change a will, although in this country I think there is something called a deed of variation, which is where the beneficiaries of the will can change it after the death of the will maker if they all agree

    I do not know how different laws are in Scotland
  5. Quilty

    Quilty Registered User

    Aug 28, 2014
    In scotland i dont think you have to tell anyone about the poa. You need to convince a witness that you have capacity to give your consent to someone being your poa. I would find out when the poa was drawn up and who the witness was.
    Your plan to take your grandmother home may not be a good one. She sounds frail and ill. It may be better for her to stay where she is.
  6. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    "If this part is left blank two people need to sign the certificate to confirm understanding."

    Things have changed.
    There is now only provision for one certificate provider and nomination of any people to be told is optional.
  7. Chemmy

    Chemmy Registered User

    Nov 7, 2011
    That is SO wrong, and open to all sorts of abuse.
  8. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    In Scotland, under current regulations, it would be very difficult to successfully challenge a POA on grounds of capacity at time of signing.

    Once your PoA is drafted you will need to be interviewed - This interview is
    carried out by either a solicitor or medical practitioner to asses that you fully
    understand what you are doing. If they are satisfied with this, they will complete and
    sign the prescribed certificate confirming so. The date in box 2 of the prescribed
    certificate must be the same as the date you signed your PoA. The date at the end
    of the prescribed certificate where your solicitor or medical practitioner signs can be
    the same or a later date, but must not predate the date you signed your PoA.


    You can read all about the Scottish system on
  9. sleepless

    sleepless Registered User

    Feb 19, 2010
    The Sweet North
    I agree with Chemmy that this leaves the whole thing open to abuse. At least when for example other siblings were informed, this gave some 'checks and balances'.
  10. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    "That is SO wrong, and open to all sorts of abuse."

    Not really much more open than the previous system where an unscrupulous knowledge based certificate provider could easily find a person to be told.

    It's all much simpler and should encourage people to make LPAs in good time.

    The EPA system was the other extreme. I've forgotten the details but you had to name a certain number of people starting with the nearest relative and to further complicate things if you named anybody in one class you then had to name all people in that class. If sufficient people did not exist in close relatives this could lead to large numbers having to be named and their addresses found or application to ignore that person.
  11. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    "At least when for example other siblings were informed, this gave some 'checks and balances'."

    If there was only one certificate provider it was up to the donor to decide how many persons to be told were specified, any number between 1 and 5.

    These persons did not have to be related, they only had to be an adult who knew the donor well and was not an attorney or a certificate provider.

    The donor was free to choose the persons to be told just as they could choose their attorneys.
  12. fizzie

    fizzie Registered User

    Jul 20, 2011
    i'm so sorry. I can't add any more info about PoA than the others have but I just wanted to say that I hope you fight to have your Grandma with you.
    Her confusion may reduce as/if her kidneys improve - after a major body trauma it is common to have severe confusion.
    I hope your relatives will see sense and allow her to have peace in the last days/weeks/months and come to be at your house.
  13. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    #13 Shedrech, Dec 31, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
    Hi AndyW
    You've had lots of responses regarding the actual POA - so I won't add to those.
    I do wonder about the new will, but maybe that's what your grandmother wanted at the time. Maybe send to her solicitor a copy of the instructions she gave you just so that the solicitor is aware of her thoughts at the of signing the previous will.

    It's lovely of you and your wife to want to take your grandmother into your home. Given her condition, though, and the distance you are away from her in Glasgow, might that be largely impractical. I know we all feel disquiet at our family members being looked after by 'strangers'. However, in a care home the 'strangers' are trained staff who, certainly in my experience, do get to know those in their care and also become fond of their residents. The individual staff, too, are not required to care all day, every day and night with very little chance of a break - which is the situation you would find yourselves in, having had no previous experience of caring for your grandmother in her current medical, physical and mental state. So overall, your grandmother may well be better off in a care home where staff support her, rather than in her own home with your cousin supporting her or going through the upheaval of moving to NI (and if your cousin has POA for Health and Welfare, I'm really not sure you could go against his wishes).

    Maybe work with your cousin to find a home you are happy with and visit as often as you are able to keep an eye on your grandmother to give yourself some peace of mind that she may not be with you, but she is well cared for. What matters is that she is comfortable and as content as she can be - and you are both her relatives, working together would be better than fighting each other.

    Best wishes
  14. notsogooddtr

    notsogooddtr Registered User

    Jul 2, 2011
    I agree,I had to inform my late sister's husband who cut us out of our nieces life a month after her death.It was a very convoluted system
  15. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
  16. AndyW

    AndyW Registered User

    Dec 31, 2015
    Many thanks

    Many thanks to all that replied to my post ,, I have a lot to think about ,,, the current situation is that my grand mother is now in a specialist ward in the QEUH in Glasgow. I was informed that the consultant attending thinks that my grandmother may respond to a treatment they have to try and reduce the effects or revert her mental state back to where it was prior to this failure.

    I have to admit that I am torn between leaving my grandmother where she is or as I have said previously bringing her here in effect to die in the company of loved ones who would offer the best quality of life for what ever time she has left.

    i have taken it upon my self to engage a solicitor to look at all the legal side as to be honest I just dont know enough factual and not here say. When I asay that I d not mean and disrespect to any of you that replied to the post.

    I just feel that I have a responsibility to give the best care and quality of life that I can to a woman whom I love dearly and who in her day nursed me through the usual childhood illnesses measels twice (think one was the German one) mumps chicken pox, she was also there when my mother wasnt when I had a strangulated bowel and was life or death situation. So yes I have a strong bond.

    Ref caring for her, I am trained to paramedic standard, although outdated now, I passed the exams whist serving in the Royal Engineers in 1988-93. I also have my own health issues with Diabetes type 2 and PTSD, my wife is a very proficient carer.

    Once again many thanks to all that replied or shared experience or knowledge I really appreciate it ,, not least for getting it all off my chest


Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.