Not sure what I'll find

[cilla89]

I have applied for deputyship on behalf of my mum, and have asked the court for authority to separate the joint accounts she holds with my stepfather on a 50/50 basis. I was advised to do this by Age Concern and Solicitor for the Elderly.

There is not a lot of money altho there are a lot of accounts! My mum has been in an EMI nursing home for 4 years now and my SF went into a care home last year. It was only thro clearing the house that the muddled finances came to light. SF has to meet his care costs, mum has 117 aftercare. The LA assessment of SF's contribution was based on 50% of the finances he held in joint accounts with my mum, and 100% of the income he has in his sole name. (Most of his income is in his sole name I should add).

It looks like finally deputyship will be granted to me - however, I'm unsure what I'll find when I have the authority to manage my mum's finances. Most of the accounts should have been frozen, as I wrote to the banks last year on Age Concern's advice, telling them of my mum's lack of capacity. However, I did not contact one particular bank (the one where most capital is held in 2 joint accounts, a current and a savings account) because my stepbrother (who was very resistant to any freezing of accounts) said he paid my SF's bills from the current account at that bank. SB has a third party mandate with that bank on the current account and he said it would be very problematic for him if he couldn't access the account on behalf of his father.

I now think I was probably unwise not to contact that bank on behalf of my mum (Age Concern Financial Advisor had been very firm that I should) but I did not want to alienate my SB and at that point in time felt he would act fairly.

To cut a long story short, it is now a year on and I am not sure what monies will be in the 2 joint accounts with the bank I did not contact. I think that the full care home fees for my SF could well have been paid solely from this account. This would deprive my mum of a substantial amount, and would not be in accordance with the 50% assessment made by the LA of the finances my SF holds in joint accounts with my mum.

Of course, until I have the deputyship, I cannot be clear just what financial situation I will find. I am trying to be prepared and think what I should/could do should the joint accounts have been run down.

Can anyone advise? To my mind the monies in the joint accounts should be split 50/50 as they stood a year ago, before my SF was required to pay for his care. But will the Deputyship order apply to the finances available now? I fear that these particular joint accounts could have been totally run down.

I appreciate that this is far from straightforward, but would welcome any thoughts.

 

[FifiMo]

At the time the financial assessment was done for your SF going into care the local authority should have assessed his worth (eg what his 50% of the joint accounts was worth. Ok there is an argument that the only access to funds to pay care home fees was via those two accounts but that does not mean that you don't reconcile the amounts when you get access to the bank accounts. In fact you have a duty as a deputy to do just that and protect your mum's interests. Get statements from the 2 joint accounts in question and track the money. Cash withdrawals the son cannot make without providing receipts to show what it was spent on. Ultimately you may find that your mother keeps the entirety of what is left if that is how her share gets covered. The local authority should be able to help you with the figures. If the son has done something ehmmm wrong with the money then you will have to take action to get it back, involving the police if necessary. He would be very stupid to have done this as the local authority will have evidence to demonstrate what he has done!

Fiona

 

[cilla89]

thanks for that Fifimo - I do have a copy of the LA assessment and will use that to make the case should it prove necessary. I have fingers crossed it should not.....

 

[cilla89]

Well at last the deputyship has been granted, just waiting for the order to come through once I have paid the security bond.

I'd really really appreciate some detail/advice on how I go about reconciling the funds in the joint accounts. It is now apparent from a recent bank statement (not got any other recent statements yet) that the joint current account in the one bank with the lions share of monies has been used to meet my SF's care home fees over the past year. As a consequence, those funds are now very much depleted. So my mum will have lost a considerable amount of money if the account is split 50/50 on the current balance.

Alongside this joint current account, there is a joint savings account with the same bank. A year ago there was a similar amount in the savings account as in the joint account. So if that has remained untouched (and it should be, my SB who manages my SF's finances only has third party mandate on the current account), that money could be used to reconcile the difference.

My concern is where and with whom do I start to ensure there is a fair reconciliation of the monies? Somehow I'm not expecting the bank to be helpful. Can't at this point get through to the Court of Protection for advice on how to proceed. Does anyone know if there is anyone specific at the Court who can advise, I seem to only get hold of generic clerks who can't help with specifics.

One of the key purposes of the deputyship application was to separate mu mum's and SF's assets on a 50/50 basis and ensure my mum's funds were not run down to meet SF's care costs - but it's taken a a year for the deputyship to come through and that is precisely what has happened in the interim. Given that mum is 85 and my SF 92 it is really bad that it has taken so long!

Once I have all the statements from the various banks (there are joint accounts with about 6) I will have an overview - but where do I go from there?

Feeling a bit overwhelmed on how to manage through all this. Thank goodness the deputyship is through - but another complication is that I live in France and have to come to the UK to do this - so I have limited time when I come, and with no base here it is a costly process to stay.

Getting pretty chewed about all this, would really welcome some guidance. Thanks!

 

[nita]

I'm sorry I can't help specifically but would it be any use to email the Court with your query. You may get a more considered response:-

courtofprotectionenquiries@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

 

[pippop1]

Accountant

Perhaps there is an specialist accountant who you can email all the documents to and get their opinion as to how to proceed. Maybe someone knows of one? You could have an appointment with them arranged for when you come over and he/she would have looked over what you have sent them already.

I think this specialist advice could be paid for out of their own money couldn't it as it totally concerns the two of them?

 

[nita]

This has become a very awkward problem because two mentally incapacitated people have joint accounts. From what I've read by searching around, the third party mandate for your stepfather's account should have been automatically terminated when he became incapacitated.

Somehow, you need to separate the accounts and set up one in your mother's name with you acting on her behalf as her deputy. Your stepfather should have his own deputy. Perhaps you need to approach the banks with the problem and also the Local Authority in writing, telling them of the situation. I imagine the banks would then freeze the accounts as they would then be aware of your stepfather's incapacity, even if they weren't before. It would then be the LA's problem to try and recover the care home fees. Are you able to talk to your stepbrother about this as it needs sorting out urgently.

This is a very unusual situation which has come about because your stepbrother hasn't really acted properly and the couple's assets should have been split 50/50 as soon as your mother's dementia developed, if she has been ill the longer.

I am not sure anyone on the forum can help in this case because it is unique and you need specialist advice, perhaps from a solicitor. I am sorry you are having to deal with this and from afar; it must be very difficult.

 

[cilla89]

Thanks for the comments. I should clarify, my SF has not lost capacity, he is in receipt of nursing care. However, as he is 92 my SB pays his bills for him, via a third party mandate on the current account used to pay the care home.

 

[nita]

Sorry I misunderstood. Your SB should still have made sure the joint assets were split before. Do you now have authority from the Court of Protection, i.e. the Order says that this can be done? I am not sure how you go about this, perhaps ask for advice from the banks. I suppose though, that once you take the Court Order to the bank stating that you are your mother's deputy, they will freeze any joint accounts with her name which could cause problems for your stepfather. You would have to set up new accounts in her name with you as her deputy but I don't know how you go about transferring her 50% share of the funds. I imagine you will still have to liaise with your SB about this.

Perhaps if you start a new thread heading it "Splitting Joint Accounts" you may get more responses from others in a similar situation.

 

[FifiMo]

Hiya,

As your mum's deputy I would start with asking for statements for all the accounts going back a year.

Starting with those you do what is called a bank reconciliation statement. You add up all the accounts at their value from a year ago then split that amount in two. Two sets of columns one for mum and one for SF.

For each of them you need 3 columns. Head them up money coming in, money going out, balance. Put the starting 50% share figure in the balance column for both of them.
Then you are going to go through the bank statements one by one and you apportion all money coming in and going out based on how it should have happened if all the accounts had been operational.

So your mums might tell this story...

Description Money Coming In, Money Going Out, Balance
Opening £10,000
Pension In. £200 £10,200
Groceries
(50:50). £50 £10,150

At the end of all the statements you will have the amount of money your mum should have and the amount your SF should have. Then you go to the most recent statements and agree with your SB what money needs to be transferred from each account so that your mums money is right and your SFs is right. You could transfer all the money into one account then divide it up, or move the money from one account to another until your mum's account has her money in. I think you'll have to get your SB to cooperate with you in doing the sums and agreeing how the money is moved around.

Fiona

 

[cilla89]

Thanks Fiona. Big problem is that my SB will not agree/help on this. He objected to my deputyship on the grounds that it was not in his fathers interests to have the joint accounts frozen or separated. Thankfully that objection was dismissed, but it really held things up.

My mum has been in care for 4 years and has not operated or accessed her accounts in that time: I am her appointee and for the past 2 years have managed her pension on her behalf, this is in a sole account. Apart from that she has a small sum in an ISA in her sole name. Mum does not pay nursing home fees as she receives section 117 aftercare. However, my SF is required to meet his fees. So this particular joint current account has been used to meet the whole of my SF's fees, looks like for the past year.

I agree that I should obtain all the bank statements from all of the accounts - but I would have thought the reconciliation would be about showing that there have been nil withdrawals made by mum on any of her accounts other than her state pension (they both receive their pensions separately) while the joint account has been utilised to cover the full costs of the LA's assessment of SF"s care, made a year ago. Yet the assessment was based on 50% of the joint funds and 100% of his sole funds.

Sorry I seem to be going round and round with this and not getting any clearer.

 

[FifiMo]

Another approach once you've got the bank statements etc and established how much money your mum is due is to contact the SW and get them to speak to the SB and point out that legally his father cannot spend what is your mum's money. It is theft and must now be resolved. Get them to tell him that if the money is not reconciled that it will end up being a matter for the police and as he is the one managing his dad's accounts that it is him who will be held to be liable.

From your point of view you have to decide that you are prepared to go down this route and stick to your guns. As your mum's deputy you have an obligation to pursue this on her behalf. Failure to do so can leave you being responsible too as you will have to account to the OPG where her money has gone and what you have done about it.

Maybe you need, if the SW doesn't get through to him, to get a solicitor involved.

Fiona