My brother has been using mum's bank account

[silver lady]

Hi there, I'm new to the forum. My mum was diagnosed with Alzheimers almost 2 years ago. My brother has lived rent free at mum and dad's home for the last 8 years. Dad died 5 years ago, my brother continued to stay without helping towards bills or paying any board to mum. Since her diagnosis he has sold her car and bought himself a limousine, he wanted to set up his own business, but he's also taken her to the bank to take money out of her ISA to put towards this vehicle.

My other brother and sister and myself now have PoA but he didn't want anything to do with it, we don't understand why but I'm so glad now that he didn't. He pays his mobile bills from her account, and other oddities which we've found out since we now get her bank statements. He was able to do this because he had control of her debit card and set up online banking which we have no access to.

We've since cancelled her debit card and online banking and are now going to take control of her finances. I used to feel indebted to him because he cooks her meals but lately he goes out without telling us, I'm not too concerned about daytime but in the evening when he knows mum gets anxious of the dark and him not being there. He unplugs the home phone, he's cancelled outgoing calls so mum can't ring any one of us for help. He doesn't answer his mobile when I ring him to ask if he's going to be home so I can get back to my own home after I've visited and he's gone out.

I want him out of the house because we may need to sell it when the time comes to pay for her a good standard of care but I don't know what the position is on getting him out of the house as he classes it as his home.

Any advice?

 

[Grannie G]

Hello Silver Lady

I think you`ll be best phoning the Alzheimer`s National Dementia Helpline.

https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/faq.php?faq=resources#faq_resources_helpline

You can contact our helpline by calling 0300 222 1122 or by email at helpline@alzheimers.org.uk.

Helpline opening hours:
Monday to Wednesday 9am – 8pm
Thursday and Friday 9am – 5pm
Saturday and Sunday 10am – 4pm

 

[Oh Knickers]

Silverlady,

Crikey. This is a muddle. Poor you, having to deal with this.

May I suggest you get guidance from CAB (Citizen's Advice Bureau)? This situation, frankly, sounds really dodgy. Alzheimers Society will be able to give guidance as well.

Re the bank account, I would suggest you need to stop your brother accessing this. So maybe getting your and your sister onto the bank account and taking mum's card away from her. There is an FX card where you can control how much goes on it so your brother no longer has access. Your mum will still have a card to access small amounts. The alternative is you give her a weekly cash allowance.

Oh, dear, Trickly old situation.

Best of luck

 

[theunknown]

Hi silverlady, this's obviously a worrying time for you. Without being able to offer any knowledgable help (ie professional) I would say that it doesn't matter that your brother classes this property as his 'home'; it's the legal status that matters. The house is an asset to be used as applicable for your mum. Without being involved in PoA I don't know how he's even been able to sell her car in order to cash in. Without knowing all the facts it sounds to me that your brother has been able to use your mum's money because she's allowed this. Now you have PoA the access to funds is official and hopefully your cutting off his supply at the bank will make a real difference in helping your mum.

 

[Pickles53]

Tricky indeed but sadly it's not that unusual. I'm sure you know that as attorneys you have not only the right but the legal duty to protect her finances. You don't want to be seen to be in any way complicit or as condoning his behaviour.

I'd be inclined to set up a new account for her, transfer everything to that and have all her pension etc paid into it. You do not have to tell brother any details of this account at all. Bills which should be paid by her can be paid from that. You could leave a small amount in the old account for her to use with existing card and just transfer a small amount in when it's needed.

If brother is below 60, unless one of very limited exemptions applies, he wouldn't have any right to remain in his mother's house if she needed residential care. Maybe he doesn't realise that? If you told him it's time to start thinking about what he would do instead, at least he's been warned.

 

[silver lady]

Tricky indeed but sadly it's not that unusual. I'm sure you know that as attorneys you have not only the right but the legal duty to protect her finances. You don't want to be seen to be in any way complicit or as condoning his behaviour.

I'd be inclined to set up a new account for her, transfer everything to that and have all her pension etc paid into it. You do not have to tell brother any details of this account at all. Bills which should be paid by her can be paid from that. You could leave a small amount in the old account for her to use with existing card and just transfer a small amount in when it's needed.

If brother is below 60, unless one of very limited exemptions applies, he wouldn't have any right to remain in his mother's house if she needed residential care. Maybe he doesn't realise that? If you told him it's time to start thinking about what he would do instead, at least he's been warned.

Many thanks Pickles, my brother's 52 but the worrying thing is that mum changed her will to say that he can stay for as long as he likes after she dies! Does this mean he can stay now even when he's been behaving in this manner?

 

[Saffie]

Many thanks Pickles, my brother's 52 but the worrying thing is that mum changed her will to say that he can stay for as long as he likes after she dies! Does this mean he can stay now even when he's been behaving in this manner?

No, it doesn't mean he can stay there if the house has to be sold to fund your mother's care or nursing home. Unless he is over 60 or satisfies other criteria, he will have to move and the fact that he has in no way contributed to the household will not stand him in good stead.
A Will has no relevance until somebody is dead.
I am so sorry that you are having to cope with this. Why does money bring out the worst in some people!

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/downl...et_paying_for_care_and_support_in_england.pdf

The above leaflet from the AS might help.

 

[Kevinl]

Many thanks Pickles, my brother's 52 but the worrying thing is that mum changed her will to say that he can stay for as long as he likes after she dies! Does this mean he can stay now even when he's been behaving in this manner?

Unless she changes her will again then what she says in it stands. I presume she's given him some sort of life interest to remain there, as he's lived there for 8 years and presumably has no where else to go then I could see why a parent may do that.
Trying to change things after your mum passes away could be difficult as you'd have to prove she didn't willingly let him have the money and didn't know what she was doing.
K

 

[Selinacroft]

I'm not in any way condoning your brother's behaviour but just playing devil's advocate here. I live and care for Dad and have access to his bank account . This is my home but no legal entitlement on deeds. Having spent most of the last ten years caring for Dad and having to give up work and providing free care, sometimes I need to pay for food and things from dad's account. Personally I keep very full records but I have to say my worst nightmare from hell scenario would be none resident brother holding POA but playing no part in day to day household affairs.
As I understand it , while a close relative is resident in property there can be no enforced sale of the property. The care home can put what is in effect a charging order against the property to be settled at probate but can not force a sale in the meanwhile.
I would point out that dementia care in a residential home would cost up to £1500 per week and domiciallary care upto £25.00 per hour so any care that your brother has been giving over the years has been saving you the odd penny here and there.
Like I say- not subject to all the facts but just getting you to think about it from a different angle.

 

[oilovlam]

Silver Lady, sounds like you need to get legal advice. From what you say you are heading for a confrontation. Is it possible to sit down with your brother and discuss things?...sounds like there need to be some rules set.

Even if you do get your brother out of the house - which is likely to upset your mother - then she will still be alone.

If it is possible then it is better to work with your brother but I know it isn't always possible. He does need to be told that the house will have to be sold to fund care (assuming there aren't alternative funds and the legal professional says your brother doesn't have a claim on the house).

I know that similar threads have moved to the 'Tea Room'....the site moderator may want to do that.

 

[oilovlam]

I don't know much about POA. Does it need to be registered? If it hasn't been registered then your brother may be able to undo your POA.....assuming that your mother is mentally capable.

It's strange that he didn't want to be POA.....sounds like he trusts you or else didn't think he was doing anything untoward.

 

[Pete R]

Does this mean he can stay now even when he's been behaving in this manner?

Does your Mum still have capacity if so what does she think of all of this?

 

[silver lady]

I'm not in any way condoning your brother's behaviour but just playing devil's advocate here. I live and care for Dad and have access to his bank account . This is my home but no legal entitlement on deeds. Having spent most of the last ten years caring for Dad and having to give up work and providing free care, sometimes I need to pay for food and things from dad's account. Personally I keep very full records but I have to say my worst nightmare from hell scenario would be none resident brother holding POA but playing no part in day to day household affairs.
As I understand it , while a close relative is resident in property there can be no enforced sale of the property. The care home can put what is in effect a charging order against the property to be settled at probate but can not force a sale in the meanwhile.
I would point out that dementia care in a residential home would cost up to £1500 per week and domiciallary care upto £25.00 per hour so any care that your brother has been giving over the years has been saving you the odd penny here and there.
Like I say- not subject to all the facts but just getting you to think about it from a different angle.

Many thanks for your comment. I would feel the same way if I'd been caring for mum all these years, but what I feel is wrong is the fact that he's in no way ill etc., he works whenever he wants, he's lived there for eight years and not paid anything to household bills and board, then dad died, this then carried on. He has never made an effort to find his own place to live and has enjoyed holidays etc that none of the rest of the family has been able to do because we have rent/mortgage/bills etc. Mum has only needed attention for the last year I would say.

To find out he's sold her car, which obviously she can't drive now, and instead of putting the funds back in to her account he bought himself a vehicle to start up a business. He's been in and out of jobs simply because he can, he doesn't have any responsibilities. He's taken from her ISA. He unplugs the phone every day so we can't ring her or if she wanted to ring us, which she still is able to, she can't because he's got rid of the outgoing call facility. Why would he do that when he knows she's left on her own for periods? We were going to install cameras in the kitchen and living room for us all to log in through the day when he's at work to check on her when we can't get there, his idea originally, and now he says he's had second thoughts because 'What if I want to bring a woman home?' I am livid that he can even think this way.

You're probably a very honest person caring for their parent for all the right reasons but my brother, I feel, has taken advantage of her vulnerability.

 

[Selinacroft]

Hi Silver lady- that does sound as though he has been taking advantage if not financially abusing her. Did he plan on using this new transport to take your mum out at all?
I can't think of any rational reason for blocking outgoing calls, incoming calls yes because sometimes if you are at home all day these scammers ringing regularly can be a bit much and easier to stop them coming in or being answered by vulnerable adult. Is he perhaps concerned your mum may contact scammers?-probably not but the only logical thing I can think of.
As for women coming back, I suppose everyone has a right to have visitors if they choose but not if it would offend your mum. Perhaps installing a lifeline pendant would put your minds at rest and maintain brother's privacy.
It doesn't sound as though his caring responsibilities are taken very seriously if he is leaving her with no way of calling out if she needed to . Is your mother getting Attendance Allowance and your brother receiving the Carers Allowance? Maybe he can't work full time because he would be over the earnings limit? Sorry I'm not trying to make endless excuses fo rhim, just pondering what may behind his actions. Strange that he is reluctant to accept POA , maybe he just doesn't handle responsibility at all.