Lpa

[kevwright]

As a follow on from my intro yesterday, (and thanks for the amazing welcome and help !), I am now sitting here wading through the LPA forms, and have some questions if I may.

1. Apply from Mum, or from me? Seems I can do it all without asking Mum, seems a bit odd, what if I was dodgy and trying to rob her? (if she had any money

Any advantage or disadvantage here, or am I missing something? Linked to this, does not seem to be anywhere for Doctor to sign if we do it in her name for example, to say she is able to?

2. Mum gets Housing Benefit and Pension credit, so it looks like fees are going to get waived, but again, any impact of doing it from her or me (us really, me and Brother)

3. I favour Jointly, rather than J&S, since I want to keep her in her home as long as possible, where my Brother wants to put her in a home as soon as possible. Right decision?

4. Have to fill all the forms in twice it seems, once for Welfare, and once for money stuff. OK, but Mum has no house, no savings beyond a grand or so, and very little else. Do we even need LPA for Money side? If we do, two seperate fees of £130?, what a con!! Would we be able to get both lots waived?

Thanks in advance for help

Kev

 

[jenniferpa]

Hi there

I'm not sure what you mean by 1). There are two steps here: making out the LPA and then registering it. If we're talking about registering it, it can be done by either of you. The reason the option exists is that some people will register it immediately after execution, while they still have capacity, because then it is immediately available for use.

2) I'm assuming here you're talking about registration.

Where an application is going to be made for a fee exemption or remission then this must be based on the Donor’s financial circumstances and not the circumstances of the person seeking to register the EPA or LPA.

So while you're applying for registration, you apply for a fee exemption on the basis of your mother's situation. This is because, if she had pots of money, you would be entitled (as her attorney) to claim back the registration fees from her.

3) I think this depends on what you are trying to achieve. If it's to obstruct your brother (sorry if that sounds judgmental) then jointly will do just that. However, it will mean that you both have to sign everything. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that if you were appointed jointly and severally he couldn't unilaterally move her into a home as you could unilaterally move her back again. I suppose what I'm saying is - be careful what you wish for. Should you choose to do this (jointly) you may find that he will be obstructive in other ways. It has to be your call though (and you have to get your brother to agree).

4) yes, you should be able to get both fees waived.

 

[lin1]

Hello
As mum has few savings to speak of maybe you only need Health and welfare LPA

Does mum have a firms or private pension , If so I think the Financial one would be best
Also It would mean you could deal with things like utility companies on her behalf

The trouble is once banks building societies believe a person has lost capacity to manage their accounts they will freeze the accounts , their may be a way around this without LPA or Deputyship others here will know
Personally I would do both LPA's

If its of any help its your mum who grants the LPA of Health and welfare, finances to the person(s) she wishes to be her Attorneys

To grant an LPA the Donor (your Mum) has to have a certificate provider , sometimes two, who's job it is to ensure mum knows what she is granting, signing for and had the capacity to understand and grant LPA at that time

If you dont have financial LPA I assume mum has a state pension , then you will need to contact the DWP (dept of work and pensions) they have a system in place that a person can be an (think its an appointee) of the persons state pension ie be able to manage it and be the named contact
I hope this helps

 

[kevwright]

Thanks Jennifier, not sure I completely understand what I mean, so thanks for bearing with me.

What I mean at point 1 is that the forms allow other people to register it, in this case me and my brother, or it allows Mum (the Donor) to register it.

If Mum does it (she is not capable of filling in a form like this and probably has not been for some time, she already thinks me and brother sort out her money, which we do really), does nobody like a Doctor have to sign to say she is capable? In other words, I think we *have to do it from us not her right?

As for J or J&S, I take your point, and think on reflection, J&S is better. No need to pre-apologise about judging me, we have very little to go on in forum like this!

Thanks on point 2, missed that.

 

[kevwright]

Hi lin1,

Mum has only got about a grand in her bank, and a £200 in her State Pension account, frankly this will be used to pay for funeral probably, so little left to worry about.

I think we will do both, if we can get both fees waived, there seems no point in not doing so.

Am curious to find out more about Certificate Provider, I thought I had read that somehwere, but the LPA forms don't seem to mention it at all?

Kev

 

[Nanak]

As a follow on from my intro yesterday, (and thanks for the amazing welcome and help !), I am now sitting here wading through the LPA forms, and have some questions if I may.

1. Apply from Mum, or from me? Seems I can do it all without asking Mum, seems a bit odd, what if I was dodgy and trying to rob her? (if she had any money

Any advantage or disadvantage here, or am I missing something? Linked to this, does not seem to be anywhere for Doctor to sign if we do it in her name for example, to say she is able to?

2. Mum gets Housing Benefit and Pension credit, so it looks like fees are going to get waived, but again, any impact of doing it from her or me (us really, me and Brother)

3. I favour Jointly, rather than J&S, since I want to keep her in her home as long as possible, where my Brother wants to put her in a home as soon as possible. Right decision?

4. Have to fill all the forms in twice it seems, once for Welfare, and once for money stuff. OK, but Mum has no house, no savings beyond a grand or so, and very little else. Do we even need LPA for Money side? If we do, two seperate fees of £130?, what a con!! Would we be able to get both lots waived?

Thanks in advance for help

Kev

This is only my opinion but I feel it is best to have a joint one. Although I know that can cause many problems in itself only having one person making decisions when the time arrives can cause even more.
Nanak
missing what has gone and scared of what is to come

 

[jenniferpa]

Well to create the LPA in the first place, you need to have a certificate provider to say that the donor (i.e. your mum) has capacity.

If you rather than your mother register the LPA the donor (your mother) will be notified by the OPG.

If the attorney is making the application, the OPG will formally notify the donor.

(from the guidance notes (page 5))

 

[kevwright]

Aha, I have the LPA Forms, but not the "pack", therefore, all the guidance notes and part B the cert providers is missing.

I had seen reference to these so thought I had them :-(

I will go away now a read it all

Kev

 

[Nanak]

Nothing like a bit of light bedtime reading

Nanak
missing what has gone and scared of what is to come

 

[kevwright]

Bloody hell, it is hard work!

Just reading the first few bits, my initial thought is that Mum is not actually capable of understanding this now, am wondering if we are too late to get an LPA?

Kev

 

[jenniferpa]

Who were you planning to use as a certificate provider?

 

[lin1]

Bloody hell, it is hard work!

Just reading the first few bits, my initial thought is that Mum is not actually capable of understanding this now, am wondering if we are too late to get an LPA?

Kev

In my opinion mum doesnt need to understand it all just what she is allowing others to do on her behalf, but I am no legal expert ,

Its also nothing at all to do with mums memory, she justs has to understand while she signs, though extremely sad, its matters legally not at all if two minutes later mum has forgotten

 

[mrjelly]

Just reading the first few bits, my initial thought is that Mum is not actually capable of understanding this now, am wondering if we are too late to get an LPA?

The important point is whether you can find an independent person to act as a certificate provider to say that they believe your mother understands what she is doing sufficiently to agree to it. This does not have to be a doctor or solicitor. In our case, my Dad's neighbour was willing to act as the certificate provider and may have been influenced to some extent by what he thought would be in Dad's best interests.

You can set up an LPA to be jointly for some decisions (like selling the house) and jointly and severally for everything else. There are example wordings in the guidance notes.

It would be best to find some way of working with your brother. Perhaps you could agree to follow the advice of an independent person such as your mum's GP regarding where she should live.

Regards, Pete.

 

[kevwright]

Who were you planning to use as a certificate provider?

Sort of assumed it would be her Doctor, but now realise it could be anyone. Sadly, apart from us relatives, she has no one else now, so it looks like it would have to be the Doc if she agrees? Actually, there is a lady who runs a local dance school who would likely as not do it, Mum used to work for her as a housekeeper, and practically brought up her two kids for her.

Mind you, it looks like if there are no people to inform on the LPA, you need 2 such people?

Kev

 

[kevwright]

The important point is whether you can find an independent person to act as a certificate provider to say that they believe your mother understands what she is doing sufficiently to agree to it. This does not have to be a doctor or solicitor. In our case, my Dad's neighbour was willing to act as the certificate provider and may have been influenced to some extent by what he thought would be in Dad's best interests.

Yeah, I think we can, and as she has no house nor money, maybe it will not be that much of an issue to be J&S for everything.

I will work it out with my brother, we both just want Mum to be safe, and as happy as is possible under the circumstances.

Kev

 

[jenniferpa]

There's no reason why the certificate provider couldn't also be the person to be told. It can't be you or your brother if you are attorneys.

 

[nitram]

This is only my opinion but I feel it is best to have a joint one. Although I know that can cause many problems in itself only having one person making decisions when the time arrives can cause even more.

A major disadvantage with joint attorneys is that if any of the attorneys cannot, or will not, act the power fails as no joint decisions can be made.

An attorney cannot act if they die, become mentally incapable and, in the case of a P&FA LPA only, are declared bankrupt. An attorney can also formally renounce their position.

It is possible to specify joint for some actions and joint and several for others actions. In the above case this would mean that only joint and several actions could be taken, actions specify as joint could not be taken.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

I know in my experience that legally one doesn't need to remember minutes later what they have done when signing legal forms. In my experience it is also worrying that when the person (donor) is asked whether they understand what they are signing/ giving authority for, they say yes they understand without anyone checking they do really (dementia patients sometimes deny they don't understand and are dishonest in that respect to cover their embarassment) there is nothing that can be done and in my experience is how it is easy for the donor to be financially exploited if the ones who establish the forms are up to no good.

Just want to make sure you're aware........check with the donor (the one you're looking after the money for), get them to repeat back to you minutes later what it is they have agreed to.

 

[PeggySmith]

Hi kevwright,

We're slightly ahead of you on this having just completed the forms for financial LPA. Like you, MIL has two sons who will be acting as attorneys.

If you ring the Office of the Public Guardian, they'll send out the application packs for free. They arrive in a couple of days and the guidance notes are really, really helpful.

Part A which you already have: that's for the donor to complete. My MIL has arthritis, a tremor and poor concentration which means she would find it very difficult to physically complete the form. BUT we discussed it all with her and completed the form for her to sign. The crucial point here is that she can understand what will happen and what she is signing. If you think in your own mum's case that she really doesn't understand then you'll have to go down a different route. There is a big difference between making an application on behalf of someone else and helping them to complete a form. (what if there was no dementia involved but she just couldn't read and write very well?)

Someone (NOT you or your brother who are named as attorneys) must witness your mother's signature. In our case we asked a neighbour who has known MIL for many years.

You need only have one certificate provider (in our case GP) but in that case you must have two (min) persons to be told. In our case it is MIL's daughters in law. If you don't have wives or grandchildren or friends/neighbours to act as "persons to be told" then you will need another certificate provider.

Once Part A has been completed, signed, witnessed and dated, it's time for Part B which is for the certificate provider(s). We asked MIL's GP and he charged us for doing it. (£35). I think that's usual.

Got Part A and Part B all signed and dated? Now it's time for Part C. That's for you and your brother and needs to be witnessed. SIL witnessed BIL's and I witnessed OH's.

Phew! No, it's not all over yet. If you have "persons to be told, there are forms to be filled out and given to them.

Finally, complete the "intention to register" form and send the whole lot off to the OPG. It sounds daunting, I know but if you're methodical and systematic it's not impossible.

Finally,

I favour Jointly, rather than J&S, since I want to keep her in her home as long as possible, where my Brother wants to put her in a home as soon as possible. Right decision?

Financial LPA won't affect this decision at all. It's only about helping her to manage her financial affairs. In fact, whatever you and your brother think, unless you're in a position to fund full time care in a home, the local authority will decide what happens.

I hope these notes about the process are helpful.

 

[nitram]

Law Society practice notes on assessing mental capacity.

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/productsandservices/practicenotes/lpa/5046.article#lpa41