Deputyship and Social Services

[NervousAttorney]

Hello,

After a brief experience with POA for my mum in 2013 I now find myself in the position of applying to be a deputy for my cousin, who has gone into residential care. She is single and has no children and her only sibling passed away last year.

I naively thought that while it would be quite a lot of paperwork to get the Deputyship set up, it seemed reasonably straightforward, but I am having difficulty making progress. My cousin owns a house, and has some savings, so will be self funding for quite a while. (Haven't got my head around the changes in rules proposed for next year yet) . She doesn't have significant nursing needs so I don't think CHC funding is currently applicable. Unfortunately she now lacks mental capacity to set up a POA.

I've been honest with Social Services about my cousin's finances, but they say I cannot make the Deputyship application till they have done their own financial assessment, but are proving very difficult to speak with to make any progress. E-mails take several weeks to be replied to, and phone calls either go straight to a message that the person is unavailable or to an admin person who says they will call back and then they don't. On one occasion they said they had called me "several" times but I hadn't answered, but I had no missed calls. showing on my phone.

The social worker also told me that she had visited my cousin in person to do an assessment of capacity, but the home told me that she had not turned up for the appointment.

Whenever I manage to speak to anyone at social services they always say how busy they are, which I have sympathy with, but these delays and inconsistencies in their stories are making me uneasy, nothing seems to get done unless it is chased. If they are so busy I'd prefer honest answers from them about when they will be able to do things.

Sorry for the rant, but it is quite frustrating - please can anyone advise as to whether I can progress with the application for Deputyship without involving them.

I've not had a clear answer from them about the financial assessment they need to do, so if anyone knows more about this it would be appreciated.

Or any tips on how to make better progress with Social Services?

Thanks for your help, there is such a lot of useful info and support on this site, I'm glad it exists, although it is sad that it needs to.

 

[nitram]

I've been honest with Social Services about my cousin's finances, but they say I cannot make the Deputyship application till they have done their own financial assessment, but are proving very difficult to speak with to make any progress

Rubbish, just go ahead and apply.

The social worker also told me that she had visited my cousin in person to do an assessment of capacity, but the home told me that she had not turned up for the appointment.

Not sure why they wanted to do an assessment.
For deputy application you will need a COP 3 statement of capacity, although a social worker can sign this they probably won't and you will have to go elsewhere, maybe private.

Financial assessment should be done after needs assessment.

 

[Shedrech]

hi @NervousAttorney
I agree with nitram... I have no idea why the social worker has said those things ... someone has to take on the legal authority to manage your cousin's finances asap; it's kind of you to be willing to do this

go ahead with your application ... remember to ask for permission to sell her property or you will have to apply again when the time comes ... and ask about being able to quickly access her funds to pay her care fees

you can also apply to be her DWP representative

Become an appointee for someone claiming benefits

Apply to become an appointee for someone claiming benefits - how to apply, stop being an appointee

www.gov.uk

 

[nitram]

remember to ask for permission to sell her property or you will have to apply again when the time comes ... and ask about being able to quickly access her funds to pay her care fees

Early release of funds to pay for care can be made by submitting a free https://www.gov.uk/emergency-court-of-protection
with the application.
If there is any chance of her hitting the upper limit (£23,250 in England) before the deputyship is granted include the property in this application saying that as she is in permanent residential care she has no future need of it.

 

[NervousAttorney]

Hello, thank you so much for the advice, I will go ahead without them, I could have done that 3 months ago if they hadn't kept saying that I couldn't - I thought they would know more than I did, but looks like that might have been a wrong assumption, I'll keep that lesson in mind for the future!

 

[DolauMan]

Not sure if this thread still going. My question is can social services ask my partner for financial disclosure on her fathers financial affairs before they have been awarded deputyship. Do they need the court of protection to enforce her to disclose this information. Her daughter has now applied for the deputyship but they are still hounding her for the information. Her father is under their ward and has minimal income but is being charged at the private rate. I may add he has been diagnosed with early onset dementia but that was several years ago. Secondly, there is the case of Probate unresolved with regards to her late mothers property. Am I right in thinking the Social services cannot make a claim on this until Probate is resolved.
Many thanks

 

[nitram]

Anything that late mother left to father will become available for care.
None of mother's estate can be distributed before the will is proved as a legal document, it won't be father's money

Unless daughter had legal access to father's bank via third party agreement or similar there is no reason why she should know any details.

If LA include money (including inheritance) that can't be accessed until deputyship is agreed (several months) thing could get confused.

You could contact the LA finance section and have a discussion with them, social services are not always the best section to discuss finances.
A care needs assessment should be made before a financial assessment, has this happened.

 

[Louise7]

Hello @DolauMan and welcome to the Dementia Support Forum. Your situation seems quite complicated but hopefully the information posted by nitram will be useful. From experience, I would agree that it is perhaps best to contact the local authority finance section directly for advice about financial issues, rather than social services, as they are likely to be more knowledgeable about the situation.

 

[jugglingmum]

My understanding is that all assets left by late mother to father are now assets to which father is beneficially entitled so form part of his assets from a financial assessment perspective. Legal title can not pass until the probate process is completed but from a financial assessment perspective he is deemed to own these assets from date of mother's death.

As you say daughter won't have access to bank accounts until she has deputyship. However if she has located recent statements that indicate the level of assets then this would help.

The self funding limit relates to the assets father is beneficially entitled to and he became entitled to his share of mother's estate on her death. If it is clear that father's share of mother's estate is above the self funding limit then the private rate would be appropriate.

As has been suggested talking with the LA finance department is the best route forward.

 

[DolauMan]

Many thanks for the replies. I should have added, that my partners father gave his bequeathed his share of the house to his late wife though the legality of the memorandum of wishes is being questioned. As it stands, my partner owns 99% and her father 1%, though this is not legally binding until probate proven. Very complicated.
Interesting about the care assessment needs. Would my partner be entitled to see this assessment before disclosing any documentation? Also, as my partner does not have legal deputyship of her father, is she duty bound to disclose any documents? The authority are asking about rental income of the property which I believe they cannot ask for until Probate finalised.
Basically what power do social services have at this time before Probate resolved and no deputy in place?
Lastly, they have asked for a copy of the deputyship application. Again, am I duty bound to give them this.
Sorry, I know a lot of questions and really appreciate and guidance.

 

[DolauMan]

Apologies for grammar and spelling above, just read over it, but hopefully you'll get the gist

 

[canary]

Im afraid I dont know the answer to many of your questions, but I dont think that its unreasonable for them to want to confirm that you have actually applied for deputyship. I had deputyship for my mum, but SS said that if I didnt apply then they would apply themselves.

I would try and work with the finance department as far as possible

 

[nitram]

I don't think you have to give the LA a copy of the deputyship application although in your case I would offer the finance section a copy when you talk with them.