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Deliberate Deprivation Of Assets

Ruth1974

Registered User
Dec 26, 2018
108
I would hate to see the charity get away with this. Even if the dementia hadn't been mentioned they should give it back (in my opinion) but the fact that they knew about the diagnosis puts them in a very bad light. I would be shouting it from the rooftops to anyone who would listen.

There are ethics involved here. They are not allowed to accept money from criminals or anyone who lacks capacity and by her very actions your mother has confirmed that she lacks capacity.

I do have some sympathy for your poor dad though.
Capacity is legally defined and medically certified so just being irrational doesn't qualify. The charity might also argue that if she has capacity she can do what she wants with her money
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,742
My Mum was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s earlier this year and has recently donated a vast sum of money to charity. I didn’t find out until she’d made the donation. I have POA but so does my Dad and he agreed to the donation. I’ve contacted the charity who admitted they were made aware if my Mum’s diagnosis but still went ahead and accepted the money. I’ve been in contact with them but feel I’ve hit a brick wall in trying to persuade them to return it. I believe my parents have given the charity most of their life savings.
My Mum will definitely need care as her condition progresses and if my Dad wasn’t around she wouldn’t cope now as he does all the cooking, shopping and manages the household finances. As an only child I have no intention of providing care and thankfully live a few hours drive away and work. My concern is this will be seen as deliberate deprivation of assets when the local authority make an assessment. Does anyone know if they look at bank statements etc. I am totally stressed out over this and really feel like going no contact and leaving my parents to it. In the past my relationship has always been brittle. I would welcome any advice from anyone who has been in a similar situation.
What type of POA ?
Firstly i'd contact the office of public guardians & discuss with them this issue. They will advise & support you through issues
 

Ruth1974

Registered User
Dec 26, 2018
108
What type of POA ?
Firstly i'd contact the office of public guardians & discuss with them this issue. They will advise & support you through issues
Can i flag up (in case you dont know) they can't come to you to pay even if they think its deliberate deprivation of assets. There would be no point at all in them trying to pursue this.
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,742
Thank you. I’ll certainly be taking this further if they don’t return the donation. It’s difficult though as this is one of the larger charities so basically I’m dealing with a large corporation who can afford a good legal team.
As POA you have a bigger legal team behind you
The Office of Public Guardians
The power of attorney is registered with them
So a simple phone call or email to the OPG will give you all the answers you need & help you require.
💕
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,742
Can i flag up (in case you dont know) they can't come to you to pay even if they think its deliberate deprivation of assets. There would be no point at all in them trying to pursue this.
As a power of attorney you have a legal obligation to ensure all aspects are in best interests.
A power of attorney is legally answerable tithe office of public guardians.
Retrieval of assets / care provider issues ( safeguarding) etc can all be assisted by the office of public guardians but only while the POA / LPA is live or started a process with them before date of death.
 

Ruth1974

Registered User
Dec 26, 2018
108
As a power of attorney you have a legal obligation to ensure all aspects are in best interests.
A power of attorney is legally answerable tithe office of public guardians.
Retrieval of assets / care provider issues ( safeguarding) etc can all be assisted by the office of public guardians but only while the POA / LPA is live or started a process with them before date of death.
Only if the POA has been enacted. Even then, that doesn't mean the LA can make a daughter pay care home fees, these are two different issues.
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,742
Only if the POA has been enacted. Even then, that doesn't mean the LA can make a daughter pay care home fees, these are two different issues.
I'm sorry but i'm not advising about care home fees ....
LPA - is a power of attorney
my advice is regarding the amount given to the charity & the help & advice that the office of public guardian are able to give.
A fact i was unaware of myself until last year when i spoke to them & was informed of the help & support they give attorneys .

Obviously the lady lacks capacity as the other attorney gave permission. Depending on the type of Power of attorney severally & / or jointly could make retrieval of assets a lot easier.
You can only give a certain amount away each year, ( as anyone who has gone through probate will know)

As for the funding authority basic assessments want 3 month domiciliary care
When you come to residential care 3 years of bank statements.
Giving most of anyone's financial assets to charity is a red flag!

The father obviously also lacks capacity in some ways to see the impact of this decision
 

Duggies-girl

Registered User
Sep 6, 2017
2,040
Capacity is legally defined and medically certified so just being irrational doesn't qualify. The charity might also argue that if she has capacity she can do what she wants with her money
Even a suspicion of lack of capacity is good reason for the charity to decline a donation and as this was a sizeable donation (life savings) they should have proceeded with great caution as soon as they were aware of her diagnosis. My dad lacked the capacity to choose tea or coffee but it was never medically certified.
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,742
Even a suspicion of lack of capacity is good reason for the charity to decline a donation and as this was a sizeable donation (life savings) they should have proceeded with great caution as soon as they were aware of her diagnosis. My dad lacked the capacity to choose tea or coffee but it was never medically certified.
Totally agree capacity & amounts of money over the sum of £3000 will raise issues with Local Authority
If it's over £10000 then the bank should have flagged a large donation automatically even if authorised by a POA.
The charity will be well aware of these facts & has a legal obligation
ref Charity commissions
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
227
Capacity is legally defined and medically certified so just being irrational doesn't qualify. The charity might also argue that if she has capacity she can do what she wants with her money
One of the four criteria for having capacity is the ability to weigh up the pros and cons of a particular decision. This is the most relevant criterion when an irrational decision is proposed. If the PWD understands all the consequences and still wants to make an unwise decision they are entitled to do so but the grey area arises when you have to determine whether the bad decision is just unwise or whether the PWD was unable to evaluate the likely consequences.
 

Firecatcher

Registered User
Jan 6, 2020
52
Many thanks to everyone who has made further responses to my post. On the advice offered I’ve emailed the Office of Public Guardian as it’s difficult to contact them by phone at the moment. My next step will be to contact the Charity Commission if the charity don’t respond soon.
 

Veritas

Registered User
Jun 15, 2020
62
Many thanks to everyone who has made further responses to my post. On the advice offered I’ve emailed the Office of Public Guardian as it’s difficult to contact them by phone at the moment. My next step will be to contact the Charity Commission if the charity don’t respond soon.
Well done - let's hope the charity concerned sees the error of its ways without further argument.
 

Firecatcher

Registered User
Jan 6, 2020
52
I received an email from the Office of Public Guardian today informing me that my case is not something they’d get involved in. A solicitor representing the charity also emailed me and everything seems to rest on whether my Mum was considered to have capacity at the time to make the donation and understand the implications of her actions. The charity commission would ask for evidence of capacity. I can’t really say whether my Mum would have understood the longer term implications as I don’t live close by and much of my contact is by phone.

It’s certainly feels as though there’s little I can do to get the money back and I don’t know who I feel most angry towards - my Mum for giving away money she’ll need to pay for her care or the charity for accepting a substantial donation from a vulnerable person. As I’ve said previously I’ve always had a distant relationship with my Mum and this hasn’t helped.
 

Sarasa

Registered User
Apr 13, 2018
1,699
Oh that is annoying @Firecatcher. I think perhaps you need to talk to your father and see if it is worth him chasing up as he’d probably have a better idea of your Mother’s day to day capabilities. It does sound to me that anyone who gave away money they might need in the future isn’t acting sensibly though.
 
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Rugby kate

New member
Nov 27, 2019
3
Have you contacted the Institute of Legacy Management? If it's a big charity they will be a member and that may help.
 

Veritas

Registered User
Jun 15, 2020
62
I received an email from the Office of Public Guardian today informing me that my case is not something they’d get involved in. A solicitor representing the charity also emailed me and everything seems to rest on whether my Mum was considered to have capacity at the time to make the donation and understand the implications of her actions. The charity commission would ask for evidence of capacity. I can’t really say whether my Mum would have understood the longer term implications as I don’t live close by and much of my contact is by phone.

It’s certainly feels as though there’s little I can do to get the money back and I don’t know who I feel most angry towards - my Mum for giving away money she’ll need to pay for her care or the charity for accepting a substantial donation from a vulnerable person. As I’ve said previously I’ve always had a distant relationship with my Mum and this hasn’t helped.
Well at least you've tried, and if the Council cuts up rough about deliberate deprivation of assets in future, you can prove it. Then it's between the Council and your mother, and nothing to do with you. You certainly can't be required to make up the difference.

I still think the charity has behaved badly and I'd be inclined now to write direct to the Chair of the Trustees to say so. You said it was a large charity, and it's just possible that the trustees haven't been made aware of your complaint, even though solicitors have been involved. I'd love to know which charity it is because it was one I normally donate to I'd stop forthwith!
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
227
The whole thing hinges on whether she had capacity. Capacity related to the decision being msde, it isn't an all or nothing situation. A person can have capacity to make a decision to buy a new coat but may lack the capacity to weigh up the pros and cons of a financial decision of more magnitude. So, was she able to understand the decision, and weigh up the pros and cons of the decision? If she knew full well what the bad consequences would be and understood the likely result, then she was entitled to make an unwise decision but if she didn't understand the ramifications she did not have capacity for that decision. You are going to need evidence and that might be difficult. Is there anyone who can provide a signed statement in support of the contention that she did not fully understand the implications of the decision? A GP, bank manager, anyone who has has dealings with her who might know that she was unable to weigh up the merits of deciding to make this large donation? If she has a written diagnosis of dementia and you have a copy, that might be powerful evidence. The Charity commission is the regulator for charities and you could try complaining to them although they are rather spineless. But first gather evidence, if you can, to convince the charity that she did not have capacity to donate the dosh.
 

Firecatcher

Registered User
Jan 6, 2020
52
Well at least you've tried, and if the Council cuts up rough about deliberate deprivation of assets in future, you can prove it. Then it's between the Council and your mother, and nothing to do with you. You certainly can't be required to make up the difference.

I still think the charity has behaved badly and I'd be inclined now to write direct to the Chair of the Trustees to say so. You said it was a large charity, and it's just possible that the trustees haven't been made aware of your complaint, even though solicitors have been involved. I'd love to know which charity it is because it was one I normally donate to I'd stop forthwith!
Thank you. and yes I will try writing to the trustees.
 
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