Dads being evicted from care home unfairly

Discussion in 'Recently diagnosed and early stages of dementia' started by Dads blue eye, Aug 4, 2017.

  1. Dads blue eye

    Dads blue eye Registered User

    Aug 4, 2017
    #1 Dads blue eye, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
    Hi i was looking to seek some advice my father is in a care home and was admitted straight from hospital after being on a life support for 6months. He had with a burst anerisum ( not sure if i have spelt this correctly) he had to learn how to walk again and manage toilet needs. He has came along way since then and is now very mobile. He is 80 years of age and has early stages of vascular dementia, i looked after dad prior to his hospital admission so i was very upset i was told he was too much for me to look after and would benefit from being admitted to a nursing home residential. My father has been in this particular home for over a year now and has only recently settled in which he now calls home. Majority of the care staff love dad and saying they love having him there and he is not a problem. We then have 4 members of staff who arnt to keen on him as he wont basically just sit there like other residents and be told what to do, he likes to be asked same way we all like to be spoken to. He has always been a very caring, generous kind individual who would go out of his way for anyone and even helps push wheelchairs on activity days out with the home. But recently there was an incident when dad escaped from the home and was brought back by the police. The police advised dad had escaped as he was told he had no choice in going out and had to stay at the home and previously had a piece of paper (dolls- prevention of a person with a mental capacity to be held to avoid harm) dad didnt understand what this was due to dementia and got very irritable and frustrated. When mentioned to manager that police said no assault had taken place as this was only an accusation from the nurse in charge as there was no evidence, she then went on to tell me take no bloody notice of the police they havent aclue about dementia. The female member of staff has made an accusation that dad assualted a member of staff which when question which member of staff, i was told it was a lady called christine which i then found out of carers no one of that name work on a night shift of that name. When approached about this, there is an arkward silence and change of subject. This particular woman is not fond of my dad as he wont just sit in the chair he likes to treat the place like his home. This was totally out of character and they are making my dad out to be a person hes not saying he refused to move out the way for a wheelchair and ehen offered a piece of cake he replied swearing. ( dad loves cake) i replied with are you sure why couldnt the carer of just put it aside he may have been having a bad day to which i didnt get an answer. My dad has never raised his hand to any woman and they are now playing the card of he is an ex boxing and aggresive side has came out but it only the 4 individuals who have said this and have supposedly written statements which no one will let me see. Anytime there has been an incident is when the night staff are on or this particular woman in the day i do stress me moving him that he would deteriorate. All carer are upset and said they disagree with everything that has been mentioned as they never have a problem with dad i feel he is being bullued out by these member and a medical meeting has taken place and i was notified for me to be present. They say this was urgent and that is reason why when i have evidence to say otherwise. Im 27years of age and feel im being spoken down to, a comment has already been made saying are your only a kid. I stopped being a child from age of 18 and now a working mother of 1 (Very insulting). Deputy has also stated if problem persists with dad they will end up in local newspaper and they cant have that. Sorry for the essay i just thought id give people abit of background ive been told i have 4weeks to move him. Please someone help and any advice would be much appreciated. Amanda
  2. Oh Knickers

    Oh Knickers Registered User

    Nov 19, 2016
    Bless you. Your Dad sounds a sweetie. However, the nursing home doesn't. The fabricating of stories, the threats (as far as I read it) of putting a story about your Dad in the newspaper is as insulting as it is outrageous.

    Sadly, it comes to a place where you need to decide whether you want to continue with your Dad being there or whether there may be a chance of moving him. I would keep that last idea close to your chest with regards to the nursing home were you to go down that route.

    May I suggest you contact Alzheimer's Society? They have local offices and will have good knowledge of what is available locally and how the system works.

    If you can, get a diary of events and what you have found out together. It may come in useful.

    It may also be wise to look into local care homes so you get an idea of what is available. Don't know whether your Dad is self-funding or is SS (Social Services) supported. You can still have an idea of where you would like him to go. It will take work. However, grabbing control at a time like this can be a good idea.

    Alzheimer's Society - go to the SUPPORT tab, put in your postcode and the local number will come up.

    Very best of luck.
  3. LadyA

    LadyA Registered User

    Oct 19, 2009
    It sounds like a very sad situation for you Amanda. I wonder if it would be an idea to have your dad reviewed by the doctors? It may be that he is off form for one reason or another , maybe a slight infection or something.

    A DOLs Order is Deprivation of Liberty(Safeguarding). The emphasis is on the safeguarding bit. It's made where a person is deemed not to be safe to be allowed out by themselves, because they, for example, would not find their way back or are vulnurable in other ways.

    Another thing to bear in mind is that with dementia, the most gentle person can "take against" particular people for no obvious reason. So could it be that while most of the carers get on fine with your dad, he may have taken against one or two?

    Maybe a chat with one of the team on the Dementia Helpline would be beneficial for you. They have a huge amount of knowledge and resources at their fingertips! They can be contacted on: 0300 222 1122 or by email at

    Helpline opening hours:
    Monday to Wednesday 9am – 8pm
    Thursday and Friday 9am – 5pm
    Saturday and Sunday 10am – 4pm
  4. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    hello Dads blue eye
    and welcome from me too
    you sound to be having to deal with a lot right now, and it's tough to keep cool when you are in the thick of it
    I do think it would help to talk to one of the Helpline operators, as LadyA suggests - they have a lot of info, contacts and experience to support you
    might it help to write out in bullet points
    1) what your dad has done
    2) what was the result ie who dealt with that behaviour and how
    3) what has been said to you, by whom, when
    this might get the facts clearly organised, without any emotion attached
    then give a copy to everyone involved in your dad's care, especially all those at the meeting, and ask to go over the points with the care home manager
    you say it was a 'medical meeting', was this a best interests meeting, which is where family, the Social Worker, the care home manager and probably a Community Psychiatric Nurse (CPN) meet to discuss what care needs to be provided and action taken in the best interests of your dad - you should be given minutes of this meeting if you were notified to be present - and if you have Power of Attorney, all your dad's records ought to be disclosed to you
    the care home should have logged records of all the incidents you mention; if they haven't it's hard to see how they can use them as evidence to suggest your dad needs to leave
    having said all that, I recognise a lot of the behaviours you describe as ones the staff in dad's dementia care home have coped with from my dad (who is usually co-operative but can have a downright beligerent streak; we all know that with dementia, sadly, anything is possible), and nothing you have written would have been a big problem there - so I can assure you that there are homes where your dad's needs can be met, though it doesn't seem that his current home is one, maybe overall he may benefit from a move - and if you aren't able to find a suitable new home within the 4 weeks you mention, I doubt the home will want the publicity of trying to leave him with nowhere to live
    please do call the Helpline to really talk this through
    best wishes
  5. Ameliasgran

    Ameliasgran Registered User

    Nov 7, 2016
    #5 Ameliasgran, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2017
    Whatever they say they cannot put a time limit on moving your dad, they cannot make him homeless saying that there are numerous good dementia care homes that deal daily with aggression and or wandering, it's a common thing with dementia so even if dad didn't do anything, there are good facilities who wouldn't bat an eye at a history, made up or not of unruly behaviour. I was told my little 8 stone 5ft 1 inch mum was occasionally challenging when being hoisted for a shower. No wonder I said, she hates the bloody hoist, it scares her. What I am trying to say is if there is a problem with the home, it the homes problem not your dads. Move him as soon as you can, care home staff won't help him in the long term. Don't feel pressured though they cannot make him homeless, that would look great in the daily mail !!
  6. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    Hi Dad's blue eyes, welcome to TP
    I think when the relationship between the home and either the resident or the family breaks down it's time to move on.
    You say your dad's being "evicted" have they actually given you notice yet? If not then is there any possibility that you could do anything to repair the relationships so he could stay there, at least for now?
    Care Home is a pretty meaningless expression, what one home may find acceptable another one won't, there is no universal definition of a "Care Home" as such.
    There's a sign outside the home my wife is in that says "Care Home" but it specialises in Elderly Mentally Impaired (EMI) Nursing care, many of the residents there have been sectioned (my wife included) and challenging behaviour isn't a problem, I've been hit a few times, had a few things thrown at me, seen the staff being hit too many times to count and no one bats an eyelid, it's a regular thing, that's what some people with AZ do.
    It's staffed to allow for the fact that constant supervision is needed in all areas most of the time and that certain people need to be watched and that the staff monitor their moods, the staff all know me and I regularly go in to a warning of watch out for Fred/Freda today they're not in a good mood.
    The issue is that you have a contract with a private company and if they wish to end the contract it's up to them, anywhere that only takes the mildly affected probably do this quite often, I've read similar stories on here more than once. So if they wish to end the contract citing his potentially dangerous behaviour as the reason then there's very little you can do about it, hence it's better to try to work with them.
    You should contact social services (even if he's self funding) as ultimately it's their problem as much as it is yours if they do kick him out, they have a duty of care to everyone, self funding or not.
    There are some stories on here where the home find a "symptom" get someone in to A&E then when discharge time comes refuse to take them back, it seems to happen when a home don't want a resident back so watch out for that.
  7. SnowWhite

    SnowWhite Registered User

    Nov 18, 2016
    I believe a lot of homes accept people with dementia as they'd rather do that than have empty rooms but they don't really know much about dementia and they don't really want to learn either.

    The only people these types of homes won't accept are those who are either aggressive or disruptive because they are too much like hard work.

    If they get somebody like your Dad who is reasonably with it, as you say, it means more work for them. It's very easy to plonk someone in a chair, stick them in front of a TV and just feed and water them Regularly.

    I take it you'll be looking at other care homes in your area. Please let us know how you get on but don't panic, they can't just throw your Dad out.
  8. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    I'd disagree on the 3 points above.
    1. Any half decent home has a waiting list, far from having empty rooms they could probably let them 10 times over in a week, The longest time between putting my wife on a waiting list and them contacting me was 6 months so I don't see empty rooms as an issue really.
    2. My wife is in a "Care Home" that does accept people with challenging behaviour, they are out there and there are people in there much "harder work" than my wife, like the woman who if you get too near her grabs your hands and bites until it bleeds, she hasn't been kicked out yet nor the man who punched a female resident in the face (not that hard it caused any damage) he's still there.
    3. They could either: end the contract and charge what they like or say he needs one to one supervision at another £1k pw, they could (as I said earlier) use the A&E route and refuse to take him back, they could contact social services and have him sectioned and put in the nearest (available) secure unit until a solution is found.
    They won't leave him on the doorstep with his suitcase but if they want rid of him those are just a few of the tactics they could use if they choose, stories like this crop up on here quite regularly.
    It won't end up as someone suggests on the front page of the Daily Mail as the story "Ex boxer Mr XXX punches lady with AZ in face" won't get a lot of public sympathy
    would it, the home would get the blame for not addressing the issues, which they are.
    The home see him as a risk, better to work with them and find a solution that to say the home are lazy and they can't be bothered, that'll get you nowhere in finding a solution in my view.
    It might be the person he does punch is my wife, how would I feel if the home thought him a risk but they let him stay even though they admit they can't handle his behaviour?
    I can see Amanda's problem and as I suggested either work with the home or go to social services, sitting back and doing nothing other than calling the care home lazy isn't an option, long term.
  9. Dads blue eye

    Dads blue eye Registered User

    Aug 4, 2017
    Thankyou everyone for your replies. Im literally at breaking point, this as not only came as a surprise to myself but also all the daytime staff and nursing it a particular nurse who made something minor òf dad being unsettled one night as he has sundown sydrome its part of dementia where a certain time of day he will become restless. I put a careplan in place on a occasion when dad said i want to go home and escaped from care home, as an ex boxer /fan i purchased a few boxing dvd collection and ask if they could put this on of a noght he will settle but obviously this lasted all of a day or 2 as night staff seemed incapable of putting this on for dad. The post about in which it was mentioned as dad is not a person to just be sat in front of a tv and being seen to when they want to is definitely one of the cases within this home. I go on a daily basis i change my timings not to catch them out just mainly as working hours i cant go in until later. I found all night staff in garden smoking lounge unoccupied but manager not seeing what im seeing as there not there of a night and obvisiously going along with what her staff are telling her. I am reqhesting a MDT meeting so myself all medical professionals who have been dealing with my dad and all carers as all day time staff stop shifts at 8pm and have no problems with him through out the day if there is a case dad says im going out. They divert him away from trying to go out by saying your Amanda on her way. He'll then say o i didnt know i will wait for her then, he then 5 minutes later forgets about the whole thing of not wanting to be there and sits with a friend he thinks is he partner as he ex partner has the same name. There like a married couple with there bickers ha, him leaving will effect both him and his lady friends dementia as there with each other everyday and he is just settled there after over a year. I spoke with one of the nurses today and she is absolutely furious and sobbed saying its an absolute joke he does nothing wrong, hes a real gent, settled i dont see why he has to go and neither does anyone else on the daycare. I was advised to contact cqc and query everything. It just doesnt help that im suffering with severe post natal at the minute and now have this to deal with. Ive not long got over a nervous break down. Its just so cruel whats happened this particular person has made out to be someone hes not. It also came to light that this meeting they said with the mental health team was pre arranged and i could of been there if theyd notified me.
  10. Jessbow

    Jessbow Registered User

    The long and the short of it I ( brutal as it sounds) if they don't want him there, you need to find somewhere else.

    It sounds as thought the problem is occurring at night. Day staff wont see that, of course.
  11. Dads blue eye

    Dads blue eye Registered User

    Aug 4, 2017
    Cqc are involved and a mdt meeting is taking place hopefully we will get the outcome we want. Fingers crossed
  12. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    I wouldn't hold your breath on the CQC doing much, as it says on their website:

    "Complaints to providers – and why we can’t take them up on your behalf
    If you’ve experienced or seen poor care, you have a right to feed back or complain to the organisation that provided or paid for the care.
    We can’t make these complaints for you or take them up on your behalf. That may seem confusing but it’s because we don’t have powers to investigate or resolve them."

    As many on here will tell you the CQC don't have any powers of investigation, they will take note of your comments and they may well be considered when it comes to an inspection but that's all they won't get involved in the dispute.
    An MDT can't make a home keep a resident they don't want, so as Jessbow says it's time to look for a new home for him.
    Whatever is going on here the management seem to be supporting it and no one can make them change their mind if that's what they want to do, their home, their rules.
    Even if you do get them to change their minds it'll all happen again in a few weeks time, it sounds like one of the "Care Home Lites" that are only interested in compliant, cooperative, milder residents, they'll get him out if that's what they want.
  13. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
  14. jan.s

    jan.s Registered User

    Sep 20, 2011
    Hi Amanda. I can totally understand how you are feeling. My husband was a very kind, gentle man with dementia, hence no understanding. If people were kind and firm with him, he was fine, but, like your dad he was ask to leave his first care home. I found out a lot afterwards and partly that the manager exaggerated situations and basically wanted him out because he needed care. He wouldn't just sit in a chair and liked to wander, but he did react if someone poked at him, as one lady had a habit of doing. He was accused of all kinds of things, which I was later told hadn't happened.

    I felt that this was so unjust, and I was devastated, especially when I found out that the manager advised visiting care home assessors not to take him because he was violent. Thankfully, I didn't find that out until he was settled in an excellent care home that understood him. He would only react when someone frightened him.

    The point of my ramblings is, that, even if you fight your Dad's corner and persuade the manager that he can stay, his life won't become any easier. Basically, if the some of the staff have taken against him, if he stays those staff won't improve their attitude.

    My advice, as unfair as it is, look for a home that will truly meet his needs. Like you, we had a medical meeting with social workers, the consultant, member of the CCG etc, and I guess in some ways, I was fortunate, because the member of the CCG was on my side and advised me on a suitable care home. Roger moved there and spent the last couple of years of his life very happy and contented, loved by the staff because they treated him well.

    I also agree that moving someone with dementia can cause a downturn, but in my case it was the opposite. Roger perked up and became so contented.

    I hope this helps.
  15. SnowWhite

    SnowWhite Registered User

    Nov 18, 2016
    Disagree all you like Kevin but I'm telling you the situation here. I've visited loads of homes and my friend is currently doing the rounds of homes for her Mum and they don't operate waiting lists here. I am told it's because it wastes their time having to ring countless people who have been fixed up elsewhere months ago.

    Our local council provides a hefty book all about Adult care in our county. There's a massive section on care homes and not many actually say they take people with dementia but they clearly do. At Mums home they told me there are "a couple of people with dementia" - but the picture I get is that there are a lot more people in there with it than they realise or have bothered to get diagnosed.

    They wouldn't take an Uncle of mine because his dementia was too bad and they wouldn't take a neighbours elderly brother either as he was also too difficult for them to manage. There are some homes in our area which will take them though.
  16. Arjay

    Arjay Registered User

    Apr 22, 2016
    My father with Alzheimers was made to leave his care home 6 hours after I dropped him there, I was told they couldn't cope and knew it almost immediately. Since I was going on holiday 2 days later I had to scramble around to resolve the situation, but the Psychiatric Nurse was very helpful and suggested a few local homes that specialised in Dementia and within a few hours I had dad booked in. This home didn't bat an eyelid when I described Dad's wandering, partially clothed entry into other people's rooms and agitation, said it was normal and that their staff were well practised in dealing with it.

    I must admit that if the carehome say they can't cope, won't cope, then it is no longer the right place for your dad.

    Can you get to speak to your dad's psychiatric nurse, mine has been so helpful in supporting me during crisis times?
  17. Dads blue eye

    Dads blue eye Registered User

    Aug 4, 2017
    Hi everyone the MDT meeting was advised from a member of the nursing staff so they could have a say as it seems none of them have even had an input and are on my side. I understand every1 is saying maybe best thing is to move him but i dont see why because a certain individual has taken a dislike to him he is far from difficult to deal with i am there everyday and i pop in sometime of a night he seems rather settled and at home. Its this particular person who has a face like thunder constantly dnt think she ever cracked a smile that has the issue and has made up a pack of lies. There is a nurse that was agency who worked there and when spoke with her she said she didnt intend on staying very long as the nurse in question who has blown everything outa proportion bullied her in a previous job and this was the reason she left there. Im not saying the CQC could fully go on my side but a bit of advice and asking them to look into the situation to see if there is anything that could be done is just a little better than me sitting back feeling helpless and least i can say i tried. My sister dont drive and she younger than me and moved over the road from the home to be close by so she could get there anytime if i couldnt. So they are basically up rooting us all not just dad. I have been goving to place to put him on being totally unsuitable as manager was in paper for neglect of a patient and the other being needing improvement and hardly any activity interacts with patients were this home has that and he enjoys the events and trips they have. I have a 7month old baby who also attends the home with me on a daily basis and as a family we have built a great friendship with all daytime nurses and carers and it would just be a shame to leave for something he hasnt done.
  18. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    So the position is that the 28 day notice clock is still ticking then?
    As I mentioned earlier the CGC's website says "We can’t make these complaints for you or take them up on your behalf. That may seem confusing but it’s because we don’t have powers to investigate or resolve them."
    So they won't be doing anything to help, they refer you to the Local Government Ombudsman if you have a complaint, you can report it to the CQC but they have no powers to investigate or resolve the issue.
    What I don't understand is why, based on the evidence of one person the management side with them if the face of the evidence from all the other staff.
    It sounds like your dad is getting a very rough deal here.
  19. Dads blue eye

    Dads blue eye Registered User

    Aug 4, 2017
    Hi Jan,
    I have since reread your post and it was very helpful.
    There has since been an incident were a member of night staff yet again same staff member previously were he provoked dad getting in his face and dad reacted but lifting his cane. Yet he was restrained and held in a chair where dad became very frustrated and tried to kick him obvisiously this is because he was being held down. There isnt a restraints policy held within the home nor on dads careplan. They are now saying he is going to EMI but i totally disagree as firstly he was provoked and secondly he is really not ready for this. Member of staff are saying he isnt ready and it was totally unfair 3 statements were given in stating dad was manhandled by this member of staff and are upset as he is being punish because of unprofessional staff, he is never aggressive he is a kind and gentleman he must of been frightened and this is how hed reacted. Its really frustrating when other residents are are hitting out or kicking the legs off a carer but yes this is swept under the carpet. Then 2days he was on an outing with them in the town centre and he went missing from the group and was found 2 hours later by an old neighbour due to not being watched. Do you have any advice in regards to disagreeing with an EMI decision. Any advice would be greatful.
  20. Pamatone

    Pamatone New member

    Jun 17, 2019

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