Court of Protection Application

[Sazza73]

Hello,
I am trying to fill out the forms for a court of Protection order (both finance and health decisions) without going through a sollicitor as neither my brother or I can afford the costs which would come to well over £2000 as far as I can work out. Mum has vascular dementia which she is denying and refuses any help. She can no longer cope with dates or bills and we believe she hasn't been paying utilities since the Covid 19 situation started. Unfortunately, we both live abroad so cannot access a lot of the information needed to complete the application. We will include a covering letter to explain this but, whilst I am normally quite good at paperwork, I am struggling due to the quantity to fill out. I would ideally love to see an example of previously completed forms (obviously without personal details) so that I can reassure myself I have done it right - I believe if incorrect forms are submitted we have to start again from scratch including repaying the entire costs ? Also, Mum's GP refuses to intervene or help (although I think they are quite willing to take the £120 fee to fill in their section of the COP forms !!) claiming that Mum " has had capacity to tell us she does not want our involvement on multiple occasions ". They tell us to contact social services, which we do, who liaise with the memory service in her hometown who in turn ask for a new referral from the GP. Given that they stated Mum does not have the mental capacity to consent to Power of Attorney, I find this very bewildering. Does any one have any better knowledge about a GP's role and obligation regarding dementia sufferers ?
Many thanks !

 

[canary]

Hello @Sazza73 and welcome to DTP.

I applied for deputyship from the Court of Protection too, and I agree - there is a lot of paper filling.

One thing I would like to mention is that I wouldnt bother to apply for Health and Welfare as it is very seldom granted and you would still have to pay the fees.

I have read your post a few times, but Im still unsure exactly what it is that you want the GP to do. Could you explain a bit?

 

[Sazza73]

Hi, and thanks. Well, we asked them to provide proof of dementia so that we could get a temporary third party mandate for her bank account in order to check what state it's in and to try and get direct debits set up etc.. as we are pretty sure Mum isn't getting her pension into her bank account. They refused to provide any. We'd have to get Mum to sign it otherwise and we know it isn't worth even mentionning it as she gets angry and abusive on the phone when we suggest any help or even when we try to point out that she hasn't been to pay her mortgage since February and such like. Mum's mental capacities are extrememly diminished, she rarely knows what day it is, can't tell the time any more or change the clocks since British Summertime began in March and, as I said, cannot manage her fincances at all. She has been seen wandering round town staring into space, has knocked on the neighbours doors late at night in panic because the TV wasn't working, doesn't wash regularly etc. etc. We understood that a GP has a duty of care to intervene when someone obviously isn't capable of going about their daily life correctly. Whilst, I don't think there is any treatment possible for vascular dementia we don't think enough is being done to keep her out of danger. She can be very indiscreet regarding her finances and I worry she will be mugged or set fire to her home at some point. I don't know how much a GP can do without the patient's consent once it is clear they have lost the capacity to make decisions and so forth. Hope this is clearer !!

 

[nitram]

They tell us to contact social services, which we do, who liaise with the memory service in her hometown who in turn ask for a new referral from the GP.

Somebody has to sign the COP 3, many are reluctant to do this and pass the buck.

 

[canary]

OK, youve got several things going on here and you will have to take it bit by bit.

Also, Mum's GP refuses to intervene or help (although I think they are quite willing to take the £120 fee to fill in their section of the COP forms !!)

Does this mean that they will fill in the COP3 form? Often the GP wont fill in the form (and yes, you do have to pay), but if they will, that is a big hurdle overcome.
The Court of Protection knows that you wont be able to access bank accounts etc without deputyship, so put in what you know and explain that you dont know what is in her accounts when you fill in the application form.

She has been seen wandering round town staring into space, has knocked on the neighbours doors late at night in panic because the TV wasn't working, doesn't wash regularly etc. etc.

This is a completely separate issue from the deputyship application. Get the friends and neighbours to contact Social Services and express their concerns. Lots of people contacting them (especially if police are involved) will galvanise them. Dont muddy the waters by talking about the deputyship when you contact SS, but instead use the phrase that she is a "vulnerable person who is at risk of harm" and that they "have a duty of care"

The role of the Memory Clinic is to get a diagnosis and and treat symptoms (where possible) with medication. It is often the case that the person with dementia is diagnosed and then discharged, so if you want your mum to go back for treatment for things like aggression or psychosis, then the GP will need to refer her back again. Obviously, there is likely to be a problem in getting her to attend, unfortunately.

I hope this is of help. It can all be a bit of a minefield.

 

[thistlejak]

We had to do Deputyship for both MIL & FIL - the GP did not want to know and their social worker was told by her bosses that she could not do it. We had to get an independent social worker - he was very good. We also did not know about all the bank details - we were given an Interim Court Order in order to get the information from the banks - it does cause a delay but the court want ALL the details before they will grant Deputyship - in all it took 5 months from application to get the actual Deputyship.

 

[theunknown]

Hi sazza. You're obviously having a very frustrating time and I hope that eventually you're able to sort things out to your satisfaction. As canary said, it's not a good idea to go for health and welfare deputyship unless you have strong reasons for doing so as it's so rarely given; and you'd be paying fees for something that probably won't be granted. To me it seems as if you're in a confusing position, as it doesn't seem clear that your mum has lost all cognitive powers, even though you've been told she's past the stage of being able to sign over power of attorney. To grant deputyship the court would need to be assured by a relevant professional (and your original post suggests that your GP will sign for this) that your mum has lost any cognitive ability to deal with her own life, and thus needs to come under the care of the Court of Protection.

You mentioned, ' I don't know how much a GP can do without the patient's consent once it is clear they have lost the capacity to make decisions and so forth.' I think the answer is, probably, very little. Otherwise there'd be all sorts of legal minefields if they had that much power over someone's life. This's why we have to go through the courts. In my mum's case she was eventually sectioned and from then on she had no control at all over her life, ending her days in a secure, locked unit in a care home. The home was fine (I chose it and I was her deputy), but how I wish she could have had longer than she did in her own home. Your situation seems to be so difficult for you, especially with you and your brother being in another country, that I do think you're really going to struggle without using a solicitor. Yes, it's a long, drawn out process, and expensive, but you're putting so much hard work and stress on yourself. It's worth noting that whatever you have to pay out (to solicitors, courts, etc) you claim back from your mum's finances once you get deputyship. A deputy isn't supposed to be out of pocket through carrying out the role. Of course you need to have the money to pay in the first place, but you would be able to refund yourself.

 

[Sazza73]

OK Will definately not bother with the health and welfare bit and I will try and see how much it would cost through a sollicitor just for the one. It would be easier as I could use the sollicitor who already has most of the information needed on the forms (house sale, divorce etc.) unless anyone thinks this is a conflict of interests. Mind you we have already been in contact with them and they didn't say so, so guess not. We would be able to claim it back as Mum's income is the minimum pension crédit and no savings whatsoever. Does anyone know if the house value is taken into account, bearing in mind that she has only been paying the interest for forty years and still owes the lump capital !! Thanks for all the help.

 

[Louise7]

You may get a reduction in the deputyship court costs if your mum is on a low income. Here's the form, and it just asks about income & savings, not property. This doesn't apply to solicitor fees though:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ds/attachment_data/file/687965/cop44a-eng.pdf

 

[canary]

If your mum has got property you must make sure that you ask for permission to deal with the property (including selling it) when you fill in the application form - put it in under the question "what do you want the court to decide?" - answer: I want the court to decide that [name] lacks capacity to deal with her own affairs and to appoint me as deputy in order to manage her finances and to manage her property at [address] including selling it.

 

[Sazza73]

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm after, concrete example of what to put. Thanks !!

 

[Sazza73]

Back again as the imposed quarantine in arrivals from France have messed up my attempts to come over and sort Mum out a bit. I had booked a fortnight's leave in September in the hopes that the Covid situation would have improved but due to imposed self isolation I cannot come over as I would not be able to go to Mum's or make copies of paperwork necessary etc. I therefore contacted the sollicitor who dealt with Mum's divorce and house purchase in the hopes that we would be able to complete the forms via email and they would be able to retrieve the missing information. I was dismayed to find that even oven filing for finance and property, the legal fees are "estimated" at £1500-£2500 before VAT" plus the court of protection costs. We would propbably have to take out a loan to pay the legal fees which we cannot claim back. Also they made it souind like it might be quite difficult proceeding as they say everything has to be posted back within 7 days. Whilst we both live in France, my brother and I are hundreds of miles apart so it would be very tricky to get things posted between us and back to the UK in that time delay. I should really phone the Office of the Public Guardian to ask for advice abour the missing elements (which are currently Mum's NI number, the divorce date and the house sale). Does any one know how I can find these things out from afar. I tried going onto the land registry but you have to pay before you can look anything up and I'm not sure what category to search in. I believe it was a freehold sale circa 1988. What happens to Mum if we don't file any paperwork and she gets worse still. She is currently deteriorating quite rapidly. Her telephone conversations are very short and difficult. She cannot come out with any nouns in a phrase, tried to "show" you things over the phone, cannot read out numbers correctly. She showed a social worker her bank balance recently and it is clear that she has not been paying bills and mortgage interest since March as she has far too much money for someone on minimum pension credit. She refused to let the social worker in on a second visit and also was absent for an appointement with the Adult Mental Health consultant. She has been getting up at 3am and disturbing the neighbours. My 77 year old uncle who is her only contact currently in the UK is getting quite worn down by her and has admitted that he is not sure how much more he can take. Any help or advice welcome !!

 

[imthedaughter]

Have you got access to her online banking? If so, I found my dad's NI by looking at the statements, his pension being paid in had the number at the end of the reference. It's two letters, six numbers, one letter so like

X X123456X

I think the house deeds are about £3 to look up so probably worth paying.

You can ask the central family court to search for the final order of a divorce. Again it costs and is £65 for a decade wide search. It's cheaper if you know which court to ask and cheaper still if you have the case number. You can pay by card if you email them with your number. There's a form to fill in. This is from https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

I'm not sure about the posting issue, I've not done the court protection but almost everything seems to be possible online.

Someone suggested a private social worker and I have to say in this situation it seems like a good idea.

Your mum sounds like she is behaving similarly to my dad: he stopped paying bills, instead, he was opening post, writing notes on the pages or envelope, putting papers back in the envelope, sometimes including a random item like a tissue or pat of butter. Then forgetting about the post.
Then going out and leaving places without paying: for tyres, for a haircut, and a removal van. I tracked most of these down and paid them. He was served notice on his independent living flat due to not paying his bills and being a pain to any and all staff.

To be honest the unpaid bills to the council or utilities were at the bottom of the pile. Dad's health was more important. He went into care in April 2019.

 

[canary]

Gosh, you are in a pickle.
The solicitors fees sound about right - I was quoted £3,000 for just the Finances one 4-5 years ago, which is when I decided to do the application myself.
I dont think you would have to include exact dates and exact prices for the value of the house. It was only after I had obtained deputyship that I realised that mums home was not on the land registry and it took a lot of sleuthing before I found the deeds (hidden behind a chest of drawers). I would check with the OPG, about how much detail they would accept, though.
I did most of the paperwork sending stuff through the post and I dont remember a time restriction, except when I had to send notifications to family etc, but I did that by post and I was making an application for myself only as deputy, which might make a difference.
If you decide not apply yourself, then Social Services would apply themselves and a panel solicitor would be appointed as deputy.

 

[Nomorepets]

I have finance, health and welfare for my mother which was done through a solicitor several years ago, can't remember the cost but think it was around £500 Several years later we did the health and welfare which was registered with the Court of Protection at the same time that cost about £900 The finance one was only recently registered and all we needed was the letter from the memory clinic confirming a diagnosis of Vascular Dementia. The finance side of things will be fine so long as you speak to the bank and make them aware of the circumstances, we did this prior to registration.

The EPOA for Health and Welfare has also come in handy as when my mother was in hospital last year the Doctor and I disagreed slightly over her treatment and he said as NOK I have no say in her treatment, he will make the decision! I was shocked and later spoke with another of the doctors who said that if I had an EPOA they would speak as if I was the patient but, if they felt I was not acting in the patients best interests they could overule me. We did the health and welfare as a result of that and also from reading a story of a lady who's mother was in a bad care home and when the daughter took her to her own home, the police came and took her mother back to the care home explaining that she had no say as to where they placed her mother. I forget the story now but it was an eye opener. A copy was left with the GP which covers all medical treatment.
Find the letter from the memory clinic or contact whoever made the diagnosis and see if they will let you have a copy free of charge. Good luck )

 

[Nomorepets]

Had a rummage, health and welfare was £750 + vat in 2019. Cannot find financial as was a long time ago. It is expensive but can save so much hassle.

 

[Sazza73]

Hello again and thanks to everyone. Unfortunately, Mum does not have a mobile or a computer and would be incapable of using either now so no online banking. I took photocopies of her most recent bank statements when I was last over but they just say Retirement DWP and IS DWP with her Post Office Card number. I'm perfectly willing to pay for the house deeds, just had a go, will see if it is successful. Yes, that sounds just like Mum. She writes notes on everything (sometimes quite rude) but mostly protesting to any change in utility rates (I CAN'T PAY THAT, I'M AN OAP) and every single phone bill has the words BROADBAND underlined with I DON'T HAVE A COMPUTER as she can't understand it's standard blurb on phone bills. She can't recognise the difference between a landline, a mobile number and an international number so if she gets a phone bill with a call to a mobile she will underline it I DON'T HAVE A MOBILE as she doesn't realise she has called a mobile. I'm not really so worried about the unpaid bills, she doesn't seem to be having any hassle at the moment and I have warned all the utility companies. She could however go for months without telling anyone. She has done this before when her boiler broke, gone without a light in the kitchen for several weeks (not even thinking to take a lamp to the room) etc. etc. She can't deal with tradesmen and indeed several plumbers have refused to return to her house including one that she pretty much attacked physically. My main worry is that the money from unpaid bills is accumulating in her account and that she will do something stupid. As I say, she isn't capable of actually organising any work that it could be used to pay for but she is very indiscreet about cash and I worry she will either draw it all out or tell someone who swindles her. I would much rather be dealing with getting her help at home (I'm sure she doesn't wash or clean the house and bedlinen properly and she can't use the new dementia safe stove we bought her so she just microwaves meals from the small shop at the end of her road) but she refuses to admit dementia and would never let anyone in..... I shall definitely try to get a copy of the letter frop the Memory clinic. I already have one report of their attempts to consult with her and I think I could get the recent one too. The only other thing I forgot to ask was about experience with dementia sufferers contesting the application. Mum would obviously do this if asked directly but she would not be capable of registering a formal contestation. Does any one know how this would work ? We are told we might have to appear in court if she contests and this would obviously be complicated as we would have to take leave and travel over which may not be possible. Thanks again

 

[canary]

The only other thing I forgot to ask was about experience with dementia sufferers contesting the application. Mum would obviously do this if asked directly but she would not be capable of registering a formal contestation.

The blurb says that you have to tell them in words they can understand, which gives you a lot of wiggle room.
My mum refused to do POA too and I had to go through the deputy route. When I came to informing her of my application, I didnt use the words dementia, POA, court of protection or deputyship as I knew these would be trigger points. I waved the official paper under her nose and said that it was official stuff so that I could legally pay all her bills for her and she was happy with this. If she had not been happy I would not have assisted her in contesting it at all, as the fact that she would not have been able to do this showed (in my opinion) that she did not have capacity.

But dont get ahead of yourself. Get the initial application sorted along with the necessary supplementary forms first. Thats the hardest bit.

 

[imthedaughter]

She writes notes on everything (sometimes quite rude) but mostly protesting to any change in utility rates (I CAN'T PAY THAT, I'M AN OAP) and every single phone bill has the words BROADBAND underlined with I DON'T HAVE A COMPUTER as she can't understand it's standard blurb on phone bills. She can't recognise the difference between a landline, a mobile number and an international number so if she gets a phone bill with a call to a mobile she will underline it I DON'T HAVE A MOBILE as she doesn't realise she has called a mobile. I'm not really so worried about the unpaid bills, she doesn't seem to be having any hassle at the moment...

Urgh this is so familiar. When I got access to dad's bank account I enquired about settling his personal loan (how he had one I don't know) and it automatically sent him a letter and he wrote on it 'increasing credit limit: NO THANK YOU'. The bank's letter could not have been clearer but he was confused anyway and he also thought that his credit card was in credit, not debit! Shortly afterwards I told his home to send me all his mail, changed his banking to paperless and removed his box of paperwork, so that part of his life is now over. One less thing to worry about, for him, anyway. Wishing you luck with the paperwork!

 

[Sazza73]

Just found out this morning that mum is going to be sectioned under section 2 of the MHA, either today or Monday. She has been found wandering on the streets by the police twice in the last fortnight including once in traffic and she has been up at night screaming and throwing things at the walls so the neighbours have contacted the police and social services. Sad but inevitable so hopefully she will get a decent assessment and some decent treatment. She may well have some infection which has aggravated the dementia although she is obviously on the decline rapdly as well. her hygiene appears minimal as neighbours have testified to her wearing the same clothes all summer so she may have a UTI or something. Looks like we should be able to get the assessment done quite easily now albeit in upsetting circumstances so I think we will plod on without a sollicitor and save our money for travel and sorting her out once the Covid situation allows. I'd rather use (or borrow) the money to take unpaid leave and go to see her than pay a sollicitor. Plus they were supposed to ring me yesterday which they didn't claiming they thought there email had covered all the points needing discussion. Would have helped if they had mentioned in said mail that the telephone appointment was cancelled ! Thanks again for the advice and support.