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Confused about self funding

hrh

Registered User
Sep 16, 2017
61
Good evening everyone,
We are getting very confused about funding care for our mum.

At present our county council is paying for her care at the local authority rate and we pay some towards it.
Dad passed away, 6 months ago and so mum's house either had to be sold or deferred payments made, it has taken a long while to get a contract from the lcc which arrived today for signing.
However, our concern is, this, we applied for attendance allowance for mum which had been awarded based on she is self funding, as payments will be deferred, my concern is though, will the care home ask for the further 400pds weekly and class her the same as those who pay the full private care price.
If this is so, would we be better to just sell the house and do the funding ourselves with the money raised from the house, and would that affect her attendance allowance.
This is really confusing.

Thank you for any ideas in advance.

H
 

marionq

Registered User
Apr 24, 2013
6,016
Scotland
I would think only the Local Authority would be able to tell you what they are paying and therefore what you will eventually have to repay. I would assume the AA which was available to your mother would be absorbed into their
Current payment. If you start to self fund with the sale of her house then you can claim AA to be paid into her bank accounts to part fund her.
 

hrh

Registered User
Sep 16, 2017
61
As per @marionq -I would contact the LA financial assessor and discuss this with them, they will tell you how it all works
This is the part we don't understand even though they have explained it
They pay the CH directly at the local authority rate, we receive aa and mum's pension which we use to off set the repayments at the end.
But what is confusing the local authority rate per week is much less than what the care home charges for self funders. Could the care home therefore ask we pay the full price same as self funders, if they did we couldn't afford to pay it unless we sell the house.

H
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
1,314
North West
This is the part we don't understand even though they have explained it
They pay the CH directly at the local authority rate, we receive aa and mum's pension which we use to off set the repayments at the end.
But what is confusing the local authority rate per week is much less than what the care home charges for self funders. Could the care home therefore ask we pay the full price same as self funders, if they did we couldn't afford to pay it unless we sell the house.

H
Right I see. Firstly just to say you haven't clarified if you are self funding or not or whether the house has been disregarded officially but your not sure about the remaining payment scheme???

Putting self funding to one side. If your relative has been placed into social care by the local authority and they are not self funding, then they (the local authority) negotiate their own terms and fees as best they can with the care home, this is seperate to self funding fees (yes its complicated). What this means is that they take your relatives pension (and any other allowances) as a contribution and pay the rest plus or minus FNC if they are nursing EMI (£165.00 per week in England).

In what you are asking you haven't made it clear or you are not sure if you have a disreagrd on the property or a deferred payment scheme. If you are on a deferred payment then you will have to sell the property eventually to pay the CH fees.

The LA negotiate lower fees and generally tend to get those fees agreed from some CH's, so either way you are better off, even if you then have to be self funding and even better if there is no top-up fee which has to come from a third party, it cannot be paid by the pwd who needs full time care.

I'm still unsure of what you are actually asking though
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
1,639
In one of your other recent posts you state that the 12 week disregard period is almost ending. It isn't clear whether you have now agreed to a deferred payment agreement or not. What is the contract you have just received from the local authority - is this the deferred payment agreement contract?

If you enter into a deferred payment agreement the local authority will have a contract with the care home with regards to how much they will pay. The deferred payment contract that you receive will show how much the local authority will pay towards the care home costs so you will know whether they are still paying the local authority rate or the higher full self-funder rate by looking at the contract. With regards to whether the care home will still accept the local authority rate or ask for the full self-funding rate, you will need to ask the care home or the local authority finance team - we can't answer that question for you.

If the home decides that your Mum now has to pay the full self-funder rate rather than the reduced local authority rate then the local authority can consider increasing the amount that they pay to the care home but you will need to discuss this with the local authority finance team. My Mum is currently on a deferred payment and the local authority agreed to pay the full care home rate even though it is higher than their usual maximum rate but we had to ask them if they would do this. They will need to look at things like how much the house is worth, cost of care home fees, likely length of the deferred payment etc before agreeing to pay a higher rate. We made it clear that family could not pay any top-ups but if you have already agreed to top ups and are already paying these then the local authority may think that you are happy to continue to pay the increased top ups so you will need to discuss this with the financial team.

The attendance allowance is a different issue. During the 12 week disregard period when the local authority are paying the care home fees Attendance Allowance won't be paid. If your Mum's fees are then paid under a deferred payment agreement then she can receive attendance allowance. If you decide to sell her house then she will continue to receive her attendance allowance.

Bear in mind that deferred payments have an arrangement fee, plus interest added, and if your Mum's house is empty the insurance, utility bills, maintenance/upkeep will still need to be paid. If the house is rented out then the rental income can be offset against the deferred payment but you will need to seek the permission of the local authority before getting tenants in. We are currently in the process of selling Mum's house so the deferred payment agreement won't be a long term arrangement. Whoever holds financial power of attorney for your Mum will need to carefully consider the pros and cons of taking out a deferred payment agreement before signing the contract to ensure that it will be in your Mum's best interests. Check the deferred payment agreement very carefully and If in doubt seek legal advice first before signing anything (my Mum's contract contained all sorts of errors relating to dates/amounts).
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
1,314
North West
In one of your other recent posts you state that the 12 week disregard period is almost ending. It isn't clear whether you have now agreed to a deferred payment agreement or not. What is the contract you have just received from the local authority - is this the deferred payment agreement contract?

If you enter into a deferred payment agreement the local authority will have a contract with the care home with regards to how much they will pay. The deferred payment contract that you receive will show how much the local authority will pay towards the care home costs so you will know whether they are still paying the local authority rate or the higher full self-funder rate by looking at the contract. With regards to whether the care home will still accept the local authority rate or ask for the full self-funding rate, you will need to ask the care home or the local authority finance team - we can't answer that question for you.

If the home decides that your Mum now has to pay the full self-funder rate rather than the reduced local authority rate then the local authority can consider increasing the amount that they pay to the care home but you will need to discuss this with the local authority finance team. My Mum is currently on a deferred payment and the local authority agreed to pay the full care home rate even though it is higher than their usual maximum rate but we had to ask them if they would do this. They will need to look at things like how much the house is worth, cost of care home fees, likely length of the deferred payment etc before agreeing to pay a higher rate. We made it clear that family could not pay any top-ups but if you have already agreed to top ups and are already paying these then the local authority may think that you are happy to continue to pay the increased top ups so you will need to discuss this with the financial team.

The attendance allowance is a different issue. During the 12 week disregard period when the local authority are paying the care home fees Attendance Allowance won't be paid. If your Mum's fees are then paid under a deferred payment agreement then she can receive attendance allowance. If you decide to sell her house then she will continue to receive her attendance allowance.

Bear in mind that deferred payments have an arrangement fee, plus interest added, and if your Mum's house is empty the insurance, utility bills, maintenance/upkeep will still need to be paid. If the house is rented out then the rental income can be offset against the deferred payment but you will need to seek the permission of the local authority before getting tenants in. We are currently in the process of selling Mum's house so the deferred payment agreement won't be a long term arrangement. Whoever holds financial power of attorney for your Mum will need to carefully consider the pros and cons of taking out a deferred payment agreement before signing the contract to ensure that it will be in your Mum's best interests. Check the deferred payment agreement very carefully and If in doubt seek legal advice first before signing anything (my Mum's contract contained all sorts of errors relating to dates/amounts).
Thanks @Louise7 , far better clarity than my explanantion. However, there seems to be some discrepancy from LA to LA in how these matters are settled. In our situation the fees whether we become self funding or not are settled and there is no top-up fee. I am waiting for a final decision on whether there will be a disregard and if not a deferred payment arrangement, but either way I know that if mum is self funding she has enough money in her estate for the next 3 years plus when all of her other affairs are settled.
 

Elle3

Registered User
Jun 30, 2016
636
@hrh If you find yourself self funding the care home fees, sometimes the Local Authority can negotiate with the care home on your behalf to keep the rate at the LA rate. This is what they did for my dad, they got the care home to agree to only charge us the LA rate and no top ups. It's always worth asking.
 

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