Cheap alternatives to care homes and assessment centre's?

[SEASHELL]

My mother's been in an assessment centre for over 2 and a half years. I've been constantly telling them my concerns about the medication (my mother ended up in the assessment centre because of a massive overdose of medication which I told them about and virtually nothing's been done about it apart from when I've pestered for the medication to be lowered) but last week she had a mild stroke. I've no doubt the medication caused this.

My mother's in a normal hospital at the moment and touch wood seems to be improving a bit and I've told the doctors my concerns about the medication.

Hopefully she'll further improve and she'll obviously be discharged at some point but I really don't want my mother going back to that assessment centre. Most of the nurses's there seem pretty good but she's had some nasty injuries whilst in there and the noise some days is so bad even one of the nurses's said she felt like crying not to mention my concerns with the atitude of the consultant and doctors dealing with her who right everything off as dementia and won't admit the medication might be causing her problems. It's not a nice environment for my mother and confuses her more.

Anyway I don't have my own home and live with my father and he's unsure about her coming back home We certainly can't afford any of the care homes. We'd be bankrupt within a few weeks so is there anything else we can do? Any cheap alternatives?

 

[jenniferpa]

Well your father is right to be concerned: caring for a person with dementia is difficult. If a home placement won't work because of your mother's care needs and she has few assets the LA will pay for her placement, although she will have to contribute most of her income (pensions) to offset this charge.

I have to wonder what you mean by cheap alternatives. Care costs what care costs. Some homes are cheaper some more expensive.

 

[SEASHELL]

Well from what I've seen many care homes are extortionately expensive. At least £700 a week. That is just utterly ridiculous and even £200 a week is ridiculous. How on earth can anyone apart from a millionaire afford that kind of money? This should all be on the NHS and some people have had to sell their homes to pay these disgraceful fees. Desperate people being taken advantage of.

I see you're usually one of the first to reply to my posts on similar threads. Do you have any associations with care homes or local authorities etc?

 

[Caroleca]

I would imagine that Jennifer is responding to your post as a moderator...curtesy comes to mind...nothing to do with being associated or at least I doubt that

 

[SEASHELL]

I would imagine that Jennifer is responding to your post as a moderator...curtesy comes to mind...nothing to do with being associated or at least I doubt that

I was just wondering that's all because she seems very quick to defend these fees on quite a few occasions so I thought she might have first hand knowledge.

I'm grateful for all replies.

 

[LYN T]

Seashell, I'm very sorry to read about your Mum. It must be very stressful for you and your Dad.

I really don't think that Jennifer has any financial interest in CH's she doesn't live in Britain and I'm sure that many of us have benefited from the knowledge that she freely gives.

Cheaper options? None I think it is a choice between a CH/NH environment or remaining at home with carers coming in. I'm assuming that your Mum won't be self funding? i.e. savings, in her name, over approx £23,000.00. If not then her LA will step in with a contribution. She will have to pay all her state pension and half of any occupational pension. The other half will go to your Dad.

Your home will not need to be sold at this stage, and there will be no charge put on the house. Bankruptcy won't happen. The house will only be regarded as an asset in the event of your Dad passing before your Mum and, even then, the LA could disregard the property in certain circumstances. I won't confuse you (or myself) with more details at this time.

Are the medics at the Hospital intending to recommend that your Mum returns to the Assessment Unit? Try to speak to the Hospital Social Worker. He/she should go through the options available. Also, ask for a CHC assessment to take place. That could give you more options if she meets the criteria.

Above all, please,please listen to your Dad and the doubts he has about your Mum going home. He is being very brave to voice his feelings and the difficulties he will undoubtedly face.

Good luck

Lyn T

 

[ElizabethAnn]

Morning Seashell,
If I take "cheap" to mean financially, the only option is to care for our loved ones ourselves, but that's not "cheap" in terms of effort and the effect it has on our lives and very probably our health.

I completely understand your horror at care home prices, but 24 hour care, 7 days per week at the minimum wage is an awful lot of money... on top of which, of course, are all the living expenses.

I am in no way defending care home prices... nor do I have any affiliation with them... A letter to your MP may make you feel better?

If you haven't already, perhaps you need to get a financial assessment for your Mum, to see if she's entitled to any financial help. It may be worth checking that your Mum is claiming and receiving all the benefits that she is entitled to (apologies if you already know all this)

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=51

There is also the NHS Continuing Healthcare Funding (CHC) available to those considered poorly enough to qualify.

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=399

We have a 24 hour live-in carer plus other adhoc carers, for our parents (both with Dementia). They are self funding because they worked and saved hard all of their lives and now their money is being used to keep them both in their own home as they wish. They are certainly not millionaires and when their funds have gone, we will have to rely on the Local Authority to provide care.

I hope you manage to find a solution for your Mum.

rgds, Elizabeth.

 

[nicoise]

I thought Jennifer replied to your post as you had posted in the small hours, and due to her being in the US she is on a different time zone to us here in the U.K. She often replies to posts in the middle of the night when there's no one else around.

 

[Kevinl]

Jen's not trying to sell anything, the vey idea
So back to the point, if she's been in an assessment unit for over 2 years and hospital too what have they used to keep her there, DoLS or sectioned?
If it's a section 3 then care home fees will be paid, if there's so little assets that only a few weeks care could be paid (and that's about £13k in her name and half of any joint assets) then the LA will have to fund her care.
I'm assuming dad is over 60 so the house is a mandatory disregard so they can't touch it, so all in all it's for the LA to sort the situation out.
Two years in an assessment unit sounds like a lot, my wife was in one for 6 months and there were people in there before us and still there when we left but only a few and they had the most "challenging" behaviour so no care home wanted them.
Ultimately if dad refuses to have her back home and she (personally) has less than £13k then the LA will have to pick up the costs of her going into care, as for a best interests meeting and see what happens.
K

 

[LYN T]

Jen's not trying to sell anything, the vey idea
So back to the point, if she's been in an assessment unit for over 2 years and hospital too what have they used to keep her there, DoLS or sectioned?
If it's a section 3 then care home fees will be paid, if there's so little assets that only a few weeks care could be paid (and that's about £13k in her name and half of any joint assets) then the LA will have to fund her care.
I'm assuming dad is over 60 so the house is a mandatory disregard so they can't touch it, so all in all it's for the LA to sort the situation out.
Two years in an assessment unit sounds like a lot, my wife was in one for 6 months and there were people in there before us and still there when we left but only a few and they had the most "challenging" behaviour so no care home wanted them.
Ultimately if dad refuses to have her back home and she (personally) has less than £13k then the LA will have to pick up the costs of her going into care, as for a best interests meeting and see what happens.
K

If a spouse remains in the house the disregard is applied whatever their age. I was 54 when Pete was placed in a CH.

 

[Witzend]

I was just wondering that's all because she seems very quick to defend these fees on quite a few occasions so I thought she might have first hand knowledge.

I'm grateful for all replies.

If you compare the cost per day of a care home to just one night in a reasonable hotel or B&B locally, and then factor in that the care home also provides all meals and drinks, all laundry (often a lot), help with washing, dressing, toileting and eating if necessary, a lot of heating (usually more than in an ordinary home) plus someone on hand all day, all night, 365 days a year, then the fees often don't seem nearly so excessive.

Whether people should have to pay regardless of assets or income is a different issue, but given so many people needing care nowadays, and the colossal cost of it, I don't see how it could all be state funded without a huge increase in taxation.

 

[Pickles53]

If you compare the cost per day of a care home to just one night in a reasonable hotel or B&B locally, and then factor in that the care home also provides all meals and drinks, all laundry (often a lot), help with washing, dressing, toileting and eating if necessary, a lot of heating (usually more than in an ordinary home) plus someone on hand all day, all night, 365 days a year, then the fees often don't seem nearly so excessive.

Whether people should have to pay regardless of assets or income is a different issue, but given so many people needing care nowadays, and the colossal cost of it, I don't see how it could all be state funded without a huge increase in taxation.

Think you put this very well Witzend. I could only add that specialist equipment e.g. hoists and profile beds is inevitably expensive. A hospital bed costs £10k according to a relative who works in NHS finance. If we actually knew the costs of all our NHS care and treatment I think we would be less surprised by the cost of social care.

There is a fundamental choice between funding services through general taxation or by fees for services charged to the users. It applies to everything from small (e.g. in this area there are charges for green bin collections) to very large (e.g. care fees). I personally would prefer more taxation as I think it's more equitable, but sadly a lot of people prefer lower taxes.....until they are in a situation where they have to meet the costs. We all want the best quality care and we can't be in denial about what it costs.

 

[Marnie63]

In my mind, the only way to get a 'cheap' care home is if you are eligible for full funding and Social Services find a place in a home which costs the weekly rate that SS are prepared to fund in your area. As I understand it, legally they are obliged to find at least one place in such a home. Not sure if one has to accept it or not though. The issues for me begin when you compare such places (and my mum has been in one for 10 days' respite) to the 'better homes'. Mum briefly went to day care at one of these better homes locally - which gave me the opportunity to have a good look at it. It really does look like it caters for everything - residential, nursing, full of equipment, nice rooms, things going on, staff and nurses everywhere. The catch is that it costs £1,400 a week, so even if my mum did get full funding (which she should), I would still have to top up by just under £1,000 a week - c. £52,000 a year. Even taking my house and every penny of savings into account, this could feasibly all run out if mum were to live another 10 years.

What I find so very, very unfair is that dementia seems to be the only illness where you have to pay such levels for the patient to be looked after. I guess this is because all the NHS places that used to exist for such folk (where they were good or not, I don't know) have all disappeared.

It's just so very unfair, and very wrong. But that's what we have ... and that's why I'm holding onto mum for as long as possible at home.

Perhaps increased taxation is the way to go. I'd be happy with that - so unfair that those that can't afford it have to be in the grottier homes and those that can go into the nicer ones. The treatment and support should be the same for all. It's an illness.

 

[Marnie63]

Also, I understand the comparisons made between a B&B/hotel and a care home. But, PWDs go into a care home because they are ill, so quite how you can compare this with staying in a hotel, I don't know.

 

[jaymor]

I think the comparisons are concerning the overheads of running a business where people require accommodation and sustinence and not a comparison between pleasure and illness.

 

[Saffie]

In my mind, the only way to get a 'cheap' care home is if you are eligible for full funding and Social Services find a place in a home which costs the weekly rate that SS are prepared to fund in your area. As I understand it, legally they are obliged to find at least one place in such a home. Not sure if one has to accept it or not though. The issues for me begin when you compare such places (and my mum has been in one for 10 days' respite) to the 'better homes'. Mum briefly went to day care at one of these better homes locally - which gave me the opportunity to have a good look at it. It really does look like it caters for everything - residential, nursing, full of equipment, nice rooms, things going on, staff and nurses everywhere. The catch is that it costs £1,400 a week, so even if my mum did get full funding (which she should), I would still have to top up by just under £1,000 a week - c. £52,000 a year. Even taking my house and every penny of savings into account, this could feasibly all run out if mum were to live another 10 years.

What I find so very, very unfair is that dementia seems to be the only illness where you have to pay such levels for the patient to be looked after. I guess this is because all the NHS places that used to exist for such folk (where they were good or not, I don't know) have all disappeared.

It's just so very unfair, and very wrong. But that's what we have ... and that's why I'm holding onto mum for as long as possible at home.

Perhaps increased taxation is the way to go. I'd be happy with that - so unfair that those that can't afford it have to be in the grottier homes and those that can go into the nicer ones. The treatment and support should be the same for all. It's an illness.

I think you have preconceived views which may be slightly awry. I think you'll find that dearer homes are not necessarily 'better' homes. They may have more expensive furnishings and smarter decor but what does that matter to someone suffering from dementia? It is the quality of the care and support that matters and that does not equate to cost.
I visited over 14 nursing homes when my husband had to move to one from hospital, some charging well over £1,000 a week, but the one I liked most and eventually selected, was owned by the LA even though at the time my husband was self-funding, as were many of the other residents, and I never regretted it. The care and support he received was second to none and my husband was very ill apart from his dementia. The home itself was new and the rooms, facilities and staff were lovely. I remember writing here after my initial visit that I would be happy to move in there myself. That was my criteria.

In some areas, there is little difference in the general cost of homes and what the LA are prepared to pay but sadly, not everywhere and certainly not in the south!
However, nobody receives 'full funding' from the SS, i.e. LA.

P.S. Seashell, Jennifer is pretty expert on all matters financial regarding dementia and all things associated with it. I know I'm not the only member who has found her advice and help invaluable and I am very grateful to her.

 

[notsogooddtr]

Well from what I've seen many care homes are extortionately expensive. At least £700 a week. That is just utterly ridiculous and even £200 a week is ridiculous. How on earth can anyone apart from a millionaire afford that kind of money? This should all be on the NHS and some people have had to sell their homes to pay these disgraceful fees. Desperate people being taken advantage of.

I see you're usually one of the first to reply to my posts on similar threads. Do you have any associations with care homes or local authorities etc?

What would you expect for £200 per week?Care homes are businesses,they aim to make money.As the number of people requiring care increases a discrepancy between supply and demand will no doubt lead to increased charges.That's basic economics.You might not think it's right but those are the facts.

 

[Marnie63]

I think the comparisons are concerning the overheads of running a business where people require accommodation and sustinence and not a comparison between pleasure and illness.

Yes I agree, sorry, got carried away with my rant.

 

[Marnie63]

I think you have preconceived views which may be slightly awry. I think you'll find that dearer homes are not necessarily 'better' homes. They may have more expensive furnishings and smarter decor but what does that matter to someone suffering from dementia? It is the quality of the care and support that matters and that does not equate to cost.
I visited over 14 nursing homes when my husband had to move to one from hospital, some charging well over £1,000 a week, but the one I liked most and eventually selected, was owned by the LA even though at the time my husband was self-funding, as were many of the other residents, and I never regretted it. The care and support he received was second to none and my husband was very ill apart from his dementia. The home itself was new and the rooms, facilities and staff were lovely. I remember writing here after my initial visit that I would be happy to move in there myself. That was my criteria.

In some areas, there is little difference in the general cost of homes and what the LA are prepared to pay but sadly, not everywhere and certainly not in the south!
However, nobody receives 'full funding' from the SS, i.e. LA.

P.S. Seashell, Jennifer is pretty expert on all matters financial regarding dementia and all things associated with it. I know I'm not the only member who has found her advice and help invaluable and I am very grateful to her.

Saffie - maybe I have, but they are only based on what my mum has experienced and what I have seen when visiting homes. I've been to see around 10/15 myself. I didn't mean to offend anyone with a relative in a home which is owned by the LA or costs less. I guess I am very affected by the experience mum had in one, which was pretty awful. I know she could have had a bad experience in a very expensive home, and there are some local to us that have many failings, according to their CQC reports. We are in North Hampshire. Unfortunately there aren't many homes that I have found locally which are under £800 a week, and most are over £1,000 a week. By 'full funding' I meant the max allocation of funds that SS will provide if one qualifies for funding from them.

The fact remains that if I ever get to the stage where I cannot look after mum any longer in my home, then I will probably end up having to sell my home and spend a considerable sum of money to keep mum in a local care home which will provide a decent level of care. Where that will leave me one day I don't know, and that worries me very much. I won't have any money left to provide for my care one day. I understand it costs money to run these places, but it cannot be right that individuals are having to fork out hundreds of thousands of pounds to be cared for in homes.

A friend of mine lives in the same village as the owners of the £1,400 a week home near us - they certainly don't live in a small house nor drive basic cars!!! Yes it must cost a lot to run their very large care home, but they don't do it for love, they do it for money.

How did we manage to get to the stage where people are having to use their homes and their life savings to be cared for, because they are ill?

I know I've gone slightly off topic and I'm sorry, but the whole system is wrong.

 

[mancmum]

Care costs

I finally managed a way of explaining the posh care home to tatty care home to someone. You can buy a meal in the food chains that do [take your pick] pizza, piri-piri chicken, chinese noodles, etc etc and they all do an adequate job andit will cost you about 14.00 or you can eat at an independent restaurant run by mama and the food IS better. You just have to find them and they are few and far between.

Not all care homes are private ..there is a chain in the northwest England which are run on a not for profit basis..at least that means that shareholders don't have to be paid out.

The best care home I have seen so far was in Portugal but it would feel so wrong to fly my father off to some where else and looks like BREXIT will ruin that idea...and get this , it was 350.00 a week. Quite honestly I thought i could move in there it was so nice.

The other option I have thought about simply because my father has talked about wanting to go to his old home town where all the care homes score poorly, but are cheaper, was could he go there and I could supplement by employing someone to visit and take him out so he had one to one and the care home was simply providing bed and board.