Care Home Fees

[Bettusboo]

Am trying to understand the way care home fees work in relation to fees if you are self funded and fees payable if you are funded by the local authority. Basically, I’m trying to work out whether it is all fair and equitable or, as someone has suggested to me, that the fees are different and so in effect self funded residents are subsidising those who are funded by the local authority. I’d be surprised is that was the case as seems extremely unfair. I thought the fees were the same for everyone and if they were above the rate the LA will pay, you have to pay a top up up to the amount of the general fees. That’s right isn’t it ?

 

[Dave63]

A local authority who pay the going rate for home fees is probably as rare as hens teeth. The difference between what the LA are willing to pay and what the home charges is often passed onto the relatives as a 'top up fee'.

The person receiving LA funding can't pay the top up fee as they've already been financially assessed and the home are not going to take the financial hit, so the difference is passed onto the relatives.

As for 'having' to pay top up fees, the answer is no, you can absolutely refuse to pay them. The wording for top up fee payments is 'if you are willing and/or able'. The home will either still take you or the LA will find a home who will.

It's another part of the broken social care system we enjoy in this country. Wouldn't it be wonderful to be an MP and earn £10k a day for a secondary job so we didn't have to worry about were the money is going to come from!

 

[SAP]

These two links explain the situation. It is ridiculously unfair on everyone. There is a misconception that someone who is self funding is paying the same as someone whose funding is from the LA but as state above the LA have a different arrangement with carehomes , which are now mostly run by private companies. So spaces for LA funded residents are few and far between hence the “pressure” for third parties to top up.

What are care home top-up fees? | Age UK

You will need to "top up" If you choose a care home with fees higher than your local authority is willing to pay. Read more from Age UK.

www.ageuk.org.uk

Do I Have to Sell my Home to Pay For Care? | Age UK

We explain the means test and property and when you have to sell your home to pay for care. Find out more information from Age UK. Read now.

www.ageuk.org.uk

 

[Banjomansmate]

The LA pay an agreed rate to the care homes that are prepared to accept that rate, which undoubtedly does not cover the full cost of care. The care homes charge self funding residents whatever price actually covers the cost of their care plus a bit more to make up the difference between the LA rate and actual cost of LA residents.
Some care homes refuse to accept LA funded residents, which is why it can be difficult to find a suitable care home when LA are trying to place somebody.

 

[Susan11]

It's totally unfair. The extra fees the CH needs should be paid for by the council or country as a whole not by the person sitting next to them.

 

[Bettusboo]

Thank you. That is so inequitable. I’m appalled by the whole situation with care homes and underfunding of local authorities so they can’t pay the full costs where people are eligible for support. As a family lucky enough to have some savings and a home to sell to pay for care, we are still really struggling to find anywhere that doesn’t appear to have a staffing crisis and can provide an anywhere near decent standard of care for the astronomical fees we are being asked to pay. I don’t understand why more people aren’t shouting about this. I don’t care about having to pay, it’s not being able to access anything decent because of the national staffing crisis that is really boiling my blood. And now the government has decided it can’t afford what half baked reforms it had budgeted for.

 

[Dave63]

I don’t understand why more people aren’t shouting about this.

I didn't realise just how bad the social care system was until a couple of years ago when mum needed to go into care. I think that's why it's not on a lot of peoples radar because the reality of what's happening with the care system doesn't become apparent until you need to become involved with it later in life. It's also something the media doesn't get too involved with unless it involves a celebrity or a headline care home scandal. The only time you ever hear any mention of the crisis is from MP's at election time who promise world changing reform in return for votes.

 

[Bettusboo]

I didn't realise just how bad the social care system was until a couple of years ago when mum needed to go into care. I think that's why it's not on a lot of peoples radar because the reality of what's happening with the care system doesn't become apparent until you need to become involved with it later in life. It's also something the media doesn't get too involved with unless it involves a celebrity or a headline care home scandal. The only time you ever hear any mention of the crisis is from MP's at election time who promise world changing reform in return for votes.

I agree. The big social care reform ( that isn’t happening now and involved introducing a cap on social care costs) trumpeted by government wasn’t going to lead to wider benefits other than helping people who stood to inherit wealth from their parents. I count myself as one of them and it just doesn’t matter to me at all. What matters is that I’d like to be able to find decent care for them and I’m really struggling to find it. I think we are probably too exhausted to make much noise on this but wish organisation like Alzheimers UK would shout a bit louder on our behalf.

 

[canary]

I remember a TV series with Ed Balls looking at the care system.
He took a very hands on approach and interviewed all sorts of people - clients, relatives, carers, people who owned/ran agencies and homes and people in government. It was really very well done and all sorts of things that are usually swept under the carpet were looked at - including the Local Authority funding being less than the cost of the care home, due to inadequate government funding.

The trouble is that I dont think the general public cares. It is seen as something for old people and no-one thinks that it will happen to them or their relatives, so they dont bother to watch, listen or read about it. I hope this will change, but Im not holding my breath.

 

[Bettusboo]

I remember a TV series with Ed Balls looking at the care system.
He took a very hands on approach and interviewed all sorts of people - clients, relatives, carers, people who owned/ran agencies and homes and people in government. It was really very well done and all sorts of things that are usually swept under the carpet were looked at - including the Local Authority funding being less than the cost of the care home, due to inadequate government funding.

The trouble is that I dont think the general public cares. It is seen as something for old people and no-one thinks that it will happen to them or their relatives, so they dont bother to watch, listen or read about it. I hope this will change, but Im not holding my breath.

Yes saw it and it was good on the underfunding issues. I agree about the general public not seeming to care and not seeming to think it will happen to them. I also think many people don’t understand the fact that central government determines local authority funding of social care and the result is that local authorities and the people who work for them are a convenient scapegoat.

 

[Jessie5]

The local authority rate in my mum’s care home is at least £250 a week less than my Mum pays. I think more in many cases as we got quite a good deal as she went into care at the tail end of the pandemic, so less demand for places. They are now full and I think charging more.

I feel completely let down by the unfairness of the system.My Mum and Dad were hard working, working class people who scrimped and saved to buy a house. I don’t actually mind paying, but paying unfairly leaves a bitter taste. We also made a financial plan based on lifetime cap on care coming in which has now been postponed (and I suspect scrapped), so feel let down by that too.

I also dread what happens when she runs out of money. I know we’ll be expected to pay for a top up if we want her to stay where she is. But like many carers I took time out to care so have very little pension provision myself which I’m trying to make up for - a faint hope if I have to find £250 a week to top up care fees! It will also mean I can’t help my kids if they want to go to University etc. It feels deeply unfair when the likes of Jacob Reece Mogg are able to inherit vast family wealth and don’t have to worry about this! I don’t expect an inheritance- but I want to not worry about my Mum having to change care homes when she is settled and well looked after. (It isn’t a luxurious home by any means either, it is very basic but the staff are very caring and kind).

I did used to write to my MP about it, but just got cut and paste reply’s back. No one really cares. So I have given up.

 

[Dave63]

The local authority rate in my mum’s care home is at least £250 a week less than my Mum pays. I think more in many cases as we got quite a good deal as she went into care at the tail end of the pandemic, so less demand for places. They are now full and I think charging more.

I feel completely let down by the unfairness of the system.My Mum and Dad were hard working, working class people who scrimped and saved to buy a house. I don’t actually mind paying, but paying unfairly leaves a bitter taste. We also made a financial plan based on lifetime cap on care coming in which has now been postponed (and I suspect scrapped), so feel let down by that too.

I also dread what happens when she runs out of money. I know we’ll be expected to pay for a top up if we want her to stay where she is. But like many carers I took time out to care so have very little pension provision myself which I’m trying to make up for - a faint hope if I have to find £250 a week to top up care fees! It will also mean I can’t help my kids if they want to go to University etc. It feels deeply unfair when the likes of Jacob Reece Mogg are able to inherit vast family wealth and don’t have to worry about this! I don’t expect an inheritance- but I want to not worry about my Mum having to change care homes when she is settled and well looked after. (It isn’t a luxurious home by any means either, it is very basic but the staff are very caring and kind).

I did used to write to my MP about it, but just got cut and paste reply’s back. No one really cares. So I have given up.

It does strike me that if people are having to cover a shortfall in home fees due to the current funding system then what happens when those same people need care but have been unable to accrue savings or a decent pension to pay for it because they had to fund the gap in their relatives care costs? Seems like another crisis waiting to happen further down the line.

I'm not entirely convinced the planned cap would have made that much of a difference. As I understand it, it only covered the personal care side of the costs which would, apparently, take an average of four years to reach the cap of £86k. The average length of time someone remains in care is also four years so surely a lot of people wouldn't benefit from the cap? I might have that completely wrong, it's Monday and I'm always a bit thick on a Monday

 

[Jessie5]

This is exactly what concerns me, but evidently doesn’t concern any of the political parties as they are all guilty of ignoring this crisis!

Regarding the care cap, I think you are absolutely right it prob wouldn’t benefit most people. But my Mum is 82 is really healthy apart from the dementia, so I have to think she’ll be around for a while yet and may just have benefitted! Her grandma lived to 93! When we think about money I’m constantly googling ‘how long does someone with dementia live’ which feels really blooming horrible as she still gets joy from seeing us, so she has some quality of life still. It is really horrible to think like this, but basically in my heart of heart I hope she dies before the money runs out. It makes a stressful situation worse to have to think like this. But I suppose as least we are lucky that she did have savings/house so we had some choice over her care for now even if not forever. I know not everyone as lucky.

 

[KP1985]

the care system in this country is horrendous and I feel for everyone else who like us has to deal with the stress of how will we find the money as it's eye watering fees and wanting the best possible end of life care for my dad. No family should have to deal with this extra stress no matter their circumstances. My dad has just been sectioned under section 3 as his delusions are so bad at the moment. The hospital says he will now have a 117 aftercare plan in place which I believe means the LA will pay for his care home, we were private funding before. But now I have no idea if we can ask that he is discharged back to his care home as long as they can now meet his new care needs or if we would have to accept a place that the social worker recommended. We cant afford to turn down the funding offer, but we've seen a lot of care homes locally that we didn't like and we have one that we really like at the minute but its more expensive. It is a specialist dementia home so I'm hoping we can fight our corner and get him placed back there.

 

[SAP]

@KP1985 it is more a case of if the current home will have him back. When this happened to my mum she had to move homes following the assessment and a section 3. Actually the home she is in now is fine and she is really settled.
If the original home will take him back, you can top up the fees from his own money .

Which sections of the Mental Health Act are relevant to dementia?

Some sections of the Mental Health Act may be relevant to people with dementia and their carers.

www.alzheimers.org.uk

 

[Clarrisa]

It does strike me that if people are having to cover a shortfall in home fees due to the current funding system then what happens when those same people need care but have been unable to accrue savings or a decent pension to pay for it because they had to fund the gap in their relatives care costs? Seems like another crisis waiting to happen further down the line.

I'm not entirely convinced the planned cap would have made that much of a difference. As I understand it, it only covered the personal care side of the costs which would, apparently, take an average of four years to reach the cap of £86k. The average length of time someone remains in care is also four years so surely a lot of people wouldn't benefit from the cap? I might have that completely wrong, it's Monday and I'm always a bit thick on a Monday

It may be Monday but you’re right 🙂 The extortionate care home fees ‘care’ bit only covers about a quarter of the costs the rest is for food, laundry, maintenance of building, staffing (non care), insurance, utilitiesetc etc. So yes, it will take several years to get to the proposed cap.