Advice on EPA Registration

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by Dave W, Sep 26, 2007.

  1. Dave W

    Dave W Registered User

    Jul 3, 2005
    268
    Bucks
    Hi everyone - apologies for long silence. Been resting a little now that Mum is settled more happily and I'm working part-time. Also managed to complete the house sale and invest the money.

    The Bank are now asking me to register the EPA (I'd never got round to that, but hadn't been prompted to in the meantime). I have all the forms from the CoP website, but would welcome experience, advice etc from those have been down this path before.

    I'm particuarly worried about the Notice to Donor, as I can see Mum either being very cross or very upset if she doesn't really understand it all.

    Dave
     
  2. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    #2 jenniferpa, Sep 26, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
    Hopefully someone who has done it can give you input - I was about to do it when mmumy died. However, you do know, don't you, that you don't HAVE to notify the donor if it will cause undue distress, although I believe you have to get a doctors letter to that effect? Also, since the notification doesn't have to be in writing (edited: see below), I don't think you need to make a tremendous song and a dance about it. The only requirement is to notify: there is no necessity to make the donor understand what you're actually doing (if you could do that you probably wouldn't be at the point of registration anyway). So, in your place, I would be inclined to go along the lines of "in order to make it easier to pay your bills, I'm going to register that EPA you filled out" and leave it at that, if at all possible.

    Edited to add: Ammendment to the above. According to the registration, you are supposed to present form EP1PG to the donor. However, presenting it it and getting someone to understand the contents are two entirely different things. At the time of my mother's death, I had already printed and filled out the form, but what I intended to do was say what I said above, say this is the form, and then file it in her papers - she was well past reading and in fact, unwilling to even look at mail.
    Best wishes
     
  3. Nebiroth

    Nebiroth Registered User

    Aug 20, 2006
    3,518
    The guidance notes about registering the EPA state that the Court of protection may dispense with the requirement to notify the donor, but that this normally requires a doctor to certify that it would cause the donor harm or distress. If you have this then you make an application to the Court to dispense with the notification. You do this before you send in the registration.

    It might be wise to call the helpdesk at the Public Guardianship office and see what they advise.

    As Jennifer has said, I don't think there's any requirement for the donor to actually understand the notice - just to have had it. I suspect it would be a good idea to put it in writing though. After all, you are declaring someone as incompetent to manage their affairs, it would not be reasonable to require them to understand this - if they could you wouldn't be doing it!
     
  4. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    #4 CraigC, Sep 26, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2007
    Hi Dave,

    You do not need a solicitor to register and you can download the form from
    http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/text_version/formsdocuments/forms.htm
    The guidance notes are here:
    http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/downloads/EP2Guide.April06.pdf

    It took a bit longer than they stated, so be prepared to wait. Once you send off form and money, you should get a case number. Don't be afraid to call to chase it.

    The original EPA went missing in 'the system' but was found again SO PLEASE PLEASE take a good copy before sending it to the PGO just in case. On hindsight I should have asked our solicitor to send it by recorded delivery.

    Pretty sure that the donor must recieve a copy. I presented the forms to my father and then to the owner of his care home. She told me it was standard to keep them on his file at the home. But as someone said, the PGO enquiry line are very helpful and will give you any additional details on the phone.

    As I say, it took a long time to get the registered EPA back.

    Once we recieved it, I took it to solicitor to get ten 'certified copies'. These copies are signed and stamped by a solicitor to prove they are true copies. Some solicitors wanted £150 plus to do this. But we found one that did it for £3 a copy. What a difference a few calls make!

    I'm still stuggling with informing everyone about the EPA registration. Banks etc want to see the original rather than these certified copies. I won't let the original copy leave my sight.

    Hope that helps and fire away if you have more questions
    kind regards
    Craig

    By the way. - You can also run a search on the forum for 'EPA'. There are quite a few threads/messages on this topic.
     
  5. Amy

    Amy Registered User

    Jan 4, 2006
    3,453
    Hiya dave ,
    Nothing useful to say but just wanted to say how good it is to see you back.
    Pleased that mum is settled - hopefully you and your partner are now getting to enjoy life a little.
    Love Helen
     
  6. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    Hi Dave,

    Sorry just to regurgitate something I've said here previously:

    "I looked at the 'GP route' to avoid having to tell mum because I felt it would distress her .... but then realised how much more distressed she might have been given she had the potential to 'find out' from someone other than me ...... like trying to present a card/passbook etc in a bank/shop to be told by a stranger that her account was 'stopped' ...... I can't imagine what distress that would have caused.... I think maybe the 'swerve' via GP letter might be a sound choice for people who are not only concerned about the distress but can be confident that the donor has no access to or would be unable to present cards/passbooks etc "

    Does your mum really need to know? Is she in a position to realise if you are not the one to tell her? (My solicitor told me I could serve notice by telling her 'I was just filing away this piece of paper' in her drawer!!!! ;) Who is to know what conversations have or haven't taken place????

    I so agree with Nebiroth - what a nonsense to 'serve notice' on someone who by the very serving of that notice we are saying cannot understand??? A case of getting round our legal and moral obligations, I guess - in order to get to that glorious state when we have to account for every legal and moral obligation we have undertaken by agreeing to act as EPA!!!!! (Never saw it quite like that before registration!)

    You know your mother and your circumstances best - let conscience be your guide!

    Love, Karen, x

    PS: I am interested to know why the bank has prompted you to take this action (sorry, being nosy!)
     
  7. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Just a note about searching for EPA on the forums - unfortunately EPA is too short for a search to be carried out, so you'll have to be creative.
     
  8. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,856
    Wigan, Lancs
    I think the point of serving notice on the donor is so that if they do understand the notice and consider that they do still have mental capacity, they can object to the registration. Once the EPA is registered the donor cannot revoke the original EPA, so registration before time can have a significant effect.

    The forms for registration are about to change when the Mental Capacity Act comes in to force on the 30th September, so check with the PGO that you are using the right forms.
     
  9. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    sorry my fault that one. I'll check it out with the admin people and vbulletin forum and get back to you. Sure there must be a way to search for a short term :eek:

    Kind Regards
    Craig
     
  10. CHESS

    CHESS Registered User

    May 14, 2006
    136
    LANCS.
    Dear Dave,

    Like you, I agonized over this part of the registration. I waited until I felt the "atmosphere" might be right, and just jumped in with something like, "Mum, you know how I look after your money and everything for you, well, I've just got to fill this form in make it more formal. It just means I can, legally, spend all your money! Is that all right with you?" A few pounding heartbeats later came the response, something like, "That's all right. You can spend it. You know more about these things than I do". I think I then enjoyed a nice glass of wine. Fortunately, I had no problems with the other people I had to notify and the registration itself was very straightforward. Obviously, my Mum had no real idea what I was talking about but, as others have said, that's why the EPA is being registered in the first place. If my Mum had any understanding, then it would be too soon to be doing this.

    Hope it goes smoothly for you, and your Mum. Let us know how you get on.
     
  11. Clive

    Clive Registered User

    Nov 7, 2004
    716
    Hi Dave

    This is how I handled the bit you are concerned about.

    Don’t let it become a major issue. Just keep it matter of fact. I sat mum down one day for a cup of tea. The Carer was with us drinking tea. I held the EP1 form with mum’s name on it in one hand, and a cup in the other. After a while I just said to mum in a matter of fact tone of voice that “I am registering the Power of Attorney” I did not go into any detailed explanation. She just said “are you”. We then talked about something else. I asked the Carer to note on the form that I had spoken to mum. (This was my idea. It made me feel better). It was all done very quietly with no fuss or drama.

    I then filed the EP1 form with mum’s papers.


    I then sent a copy of the EP1 form to the “three relations”. (There is a specified list on the help sheet that has to be adhered to.) My sister and I were the Attorneys and the next layer of relations was the Grandchildren. In my case I had to send one copy of the form to each of the five grand children. I had warned them a few weeks before that we were going to have to register Gran with the Court of Protection because of her loss of memory. I then rang each of them before posting the EP1 form to remind them what was happening. I told them not to be concerned about the legal wording of the document, which had to be sent out to all Gran’s relations because that’s what the law says you have to do.


    I then sent the original EPA and the form EP 2 to the Court of Protection by Royal Mail Special Delivery. I think it took about three weeks to come back stamped with the seal, (creased and torn).

    Make sure you have a Certified Copy of the EPA in case the Court of Protection loses the original. They insist on seeing the original.

    Send the EPA and the EP2 form by Royal Mail Special Delivery, which will cost about £4.50. I don’t recommend Royal Mail Recorded Delivery / Signed for. I have lost one (certified) EPA in the post that was sent by recorded delivery, and currently I am in dispute with Royal Mail regarding a document that went recorded delivery two weeks ago and has still not been signed for.

    Best of luck

    Clive
     
  12. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    #12 CraigC, Sep 27, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2007
    Searching the forum for short terms such as EPA

    Hi All,

    Unfortunately the vbulletin software that we use for the forum does not allow you to search for short terms such as 'EPA'. As and alternate, you can use a search engine such as google to do this for you. The following steps force google to only search one particular site.

    One alternative is to use googles search engine.

    1. Open google. Just type www.google.co.uk in your browsers address bar
    2. Type the following phrase in the search box (exactly as it appears below!

      "EPA" site:http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/talkingpoint/discuss/

    3. Click the Search button.
    Note: You can replace EPA with any short term that you wish to search for.

    search1alz.gif

    Note: If you click on the 'Advanced Search' link in google it gives you a lot of additional options. This links is to the right of the Search button.

    Hope that helps
    Craig
     
  13. Dave W

    Dave W Registered User

    Jul 3, 2005
    268
    Bucks
    Thanks everyone

    Thanks to all of you for your responses - typically wonderful response (this is still the most amazing website I can think of).

    I think Clive's suggestion is probably the best approach. Mum has been in a good home for nearly 18 months now, and I've effectively already looked after her account (the EPA is recorded by the bank) for 2 years (she was in hospital for several months). She'll fret hugely if I properly discuss it, but if I mention it in passing it'll be easier (for both of us).

    There aren't any relatives on the prescribed list apart from me, so part 2 of the process should be straightforward.

    And hi to Helen - sorry I'm dashing today as I have to leave for Portsmouth in a few hours and have a concert to finalise organising too, but everything is going reasonably well. Mum's much more settled now, but getting much more forgetful and grasping less of the world around her. Yet as she grasps less she frets less - her world is a vaguer one than it was, but she seems a lot happier in it. I'm learning to think of that as a good thing, rather than a sad thing. If she's a happier woman, I should be a happier son, surely? House sale was a nightmare, but it's all done - even if completion day was the day of flash flooding in London and a very interesting journey! I waded for about a mile at one stage, as everything else had packed up. And I'm a lot less fraught than I was too - working art-time for this year has really helped on that score, although a new full-time job would be good soon. One hurdle at a time, eh?

    Good luck to you all in your individal journeys, and I'll log on again soon.

    Dave
     

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