Advice needed please

[Kay75]

I have a power of attorney in place for my mum who has had vascular dementia since 2021. We have been trying to get help for her since. She is housebound and confined to her bedroom in a three story townhouse which is unsafe. and she has a number of other health issues. She has refused carers and told them to go away and the social services said at the time she had capacity to make her own decision and as my nephew lived with her they couldn’t do anything as she was getting food and medication. He now wants to move out and social workers have now said that she does lack capacity and we are going to have a best interest meeting about where she lives finally. However it is being delayed as they have now said she needs an independent advocate in case it goes to court as the court will require her to have one. I have spoken to the helpline and they have said it is not something they have heard of unless they think I do met have her best interests in mind but if that were the case they should raise that with the public guardian first. I also spoke to the public guardian who said occasionally they can ask for someone independent to take notes in court but ultimately it would be down to the attorney.
I was just wondering if anyone has had this happen at all.
thnk you

 

[SAP]

Hi @Kay75 I’m assuming the LPA you have is for health and welfare.
How would she be funded ?

 

[Kay75]

Thank your for the reply yes it’s for health and welfare. She has no assets and lives in a housing association property so it would be council funded I think.

 

[sdmhred]

Yes I have seen this occur, but where there was no POA in place. The case did go to court to make a decision as to where the person who lacked capacity should live. The judge immediately said she could proceed no further until an advocate was put in place. This was to be an independent professional advocate to see if they were able to get the views of the person in question over the issue.

In most cases here it seems that the POA is used to place someone. And then if they want to leave a DOLS is applied for and then someone represents the person in question.

 

[canary]

In most cases here it seems that the POA is used to place someone. And then if they want to leave a DOLS is applied for and then someone represents the person in question.

Or, if there is no POA, its done with a Best Interest meeting and a DoLS if required. This is what happened to mum as there was no POA, but there was no independent advocate involved

 

[sdmhred]

In the case I mentioned the court involvement followed a recommendation from a best interests meeting. But why that one went to court I don’t know. I was new to all this kind of thing so I think I assumed ar the time that was standard…….solicitors were deputies so maybe that was it 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

 

[Kay75]

Yes I have seen this occur, but where there was no POA in place. The case did go to court to make a decision as to where the person who lacked capacity should live. The judge immediately said she could proceed no further until an advocate was put in place. This was to be an independent professional advocate to see if they were able to get the views of the person in question over the issue.

In most cases here it seems that the POA is used to place someone. And then if they want to leave a DOLS is applied for and then someone represents the person in question.

Thank you for the reply. Yes I thought if a POA is in place you would not need an advocate that is what I cannot understand

 

[Kay75]

In the case I mentioned the court involvement followed a recommendation from a best interests meeting. But why that one went to court I don’t know. I was new to all this kind of thing so I think I assumed ar the time that was standard…….solicitors were deputies so maybe that was it 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

thank you for replying. yes I agree who knows what goes to to court and why

 

[Kay75]

Or, if there is no POA, it’s done with a Best Interest meeting and a DoLS if required. This is what happened to mum as there was no POA, but there was no independent advocate involved

Thank you

 

[SAP]

As you do have POA for H&W but your mum is going to be funded by the LA then I think they are covering their backs…and their funds. This has cropped up a few times and I suspect that there has been a past case where a a LA has been questioned about its actions and so now , across the country, they are being extra vigilant. The issue is that advocates do not have to be experts in dementia and so if the PWD states they want to go home,the advocate takes this as fact and doable. Before there is a best interest meeting, make a log of events, what happened, who dealt with it what were the outcomes, e.g. hospital visits etc. so that everyone is very clear that the current situation is unsustainable.
I have had a similar situation with in my family , not dementia related.

 

[sdmhred]

Ah good point @SAP
GuidelInes in the Mental Capacity Act say an advocate is needed so potentially an LA has been found short on this.
I know my LA has been fined for shortcomings and in this current financial climate there will be huge pressure to avoid this.

Ive generally found advocates a bit rubbish tho 😢😢

 

[Kay75]

As you do have POA for H&W but your mum is going to be funded by the LA then I think they are covering their backs…and their funds. This has cropped up a few times and I suspect that there has been a past case where a a LA has been questioned about its actions and so now , across the country, they are being extra vigilant. The issue is that advocates do not have to be experts in dementia and so if the PWD states they want to go home,the advocate takes this as fact and doable. Before there is a best interest meeting, make a log of events, what happened, who dealt with it what were the outcomes, e.g. hospital visits etc. so that everyone is very clear that the current situation is unsustainable.
I have had a similar situation with in my family , not dementia related.

Thank you. Yes this makes sense the LA have been fined a number of times .

 

[Kay75]

Ah good point @SAP
GuidelInes in the Mental Capacity Act say an advocate is needed so potentially an LA has been found short on this.
I know my LA has been fined for shortcomings and in this current financial climate there will be huge pressure to avoid this.

Ive generally found advocates a bit rubbish tho 😢😢

Yes I am concerned about an advocate as even the social workers have said my mum can talk a good talk and sound very coherent

 

[Kay75]

Ah good point @SAP
GuidelInes in the Mental Capacity Act say an advocate is needed so potentially an LA has been found short on this.
I know my LA has been fined for shortcomings and in this current financial climate there will be huge pressure to avoid this.

Ive generally found advocates a bit rubbish tho 😢😢

Yes I am concerned about an advocate as even the social workers have said my mu

I have a power of attorney in place for my mum who has had vascular dementia since 2021. We have been trying to get help for her since. She is housebound and confined to her bedroom in a three story townhouse which is unsafe. and she has a number of other health issues. She has refused carers and told them to go away and the social services said at the time she had capacity to make her own decision and as my nephew lived with her they couldn’t do anything as she was getting food and medication. He now wants to move out and social workers have now said that she does lack capacity and we are going to have a best interest meeting about where she lives finally. However it is being delayed as they have now said she needs an independent advocate in case it goes to court as the court will require her to have one. I have spoken to the helpline and they have said it is not something they have heard of unless they think I do met have her best interests in mind but if that were the case they should raise that with the public guardian first. I also spoke to the public guardian who said occasionally they can ask for someone independent to take notes in court but ultimately it would be down to the attorney.
I was just wondering if anyone has had this happen at all.
thank you

Thank you every one for the replies it is much appreciated.
i had a mini meeting today to explain and i think as suggested it is a case of social services covering the backs against any comeback at a later date. They said if if has to go to the court of protection they would need to show all options have been explored and as my mum is so adament she doesn’t want to move they have to show that she has had an independent advocate to listen to her ( she doesn’t accept there is anything wrong or that she has dementia) so won’t accept any options And the house is not safe .As a side note when I said that the power of attorney appears to not be worth much, they explained this is something they are coming across more and more and have said people should be very specific on what they want to happen should they lose capacity on were they want to live and not just on what has been said writing the LPA

 

[canary]

.As a side note when I said that the power of attorney appears to not be worth much, they explained this is something they are coming across more and more and have said people should be very specific on what they want to happen should they lose capacity on were they want to live and not just on what has been said writing the LPA

That sounds stupid to me. We none of us know the future and have no way of knowing what would be best in an unknown scenario.

My mum, given the option, would have undoubtably have put in a POA that she didnt want to move into a care home, so when it was so unsafe for her to be at home there would have been no option but to go to the CoP to overrule her wishes

 

[sdmhred]

Mum put in hers she didn’t want to go into a home - thankfully she added it might be necessary- phew! She’s very happy and content (Apart from being rolled) . Much more so than if she had been having bed based care at home,

 

[Kay75]

That sounds stupid to me. We none of us know the future and have no way of knowing what would be best in an unknown scenario.

My mum, given the option, would have undoubtably have put in a POA that she didnt want to move into a care home, so when it was so unsafe for her to be at home there would have been no option but to go to the CoP to overrule her wishes

Yes I agree. Ironically my mum said that should this happen she would want to go into a care home due to our family dealings with dementia and she worked as a carer herself she also knew how difficult and stubborn she can be . It is something she has always said for as long as I can remember and when we filled out her LPA we both assumed that they fact we have dissused her wishes would be enough as that is what all the information said. it is just another hurdle to accessing help you have to try to think of every scenario
thank you for helping

 

[Banjomansmate]

When The Banjoman was in hospital and insisting that he wanted to return to his flat the hospital got an independent advocate to speak to him as I and all my co-attorneys + LA social worker and hospital social worker all agreed he wasn’t capable of looking after himself. Thankfully his brother was able to talk him round into accepting that the care home wasn’t too bad and by the time the independent advocate talked to him he was prepared to move into care. We had checked out the Home options given to us by the LA and chosen one, so the fact that we could tell him about it, especially the food, finally helped sway his opinion.
The hospital social workers were very good and explained that they’d had one gentleman who stayed in hospital for months until his case was finally heard by COP and the judge decided he had to go into care.

 

[BlinkingAllTheWay]

Hi Kay75,

I came across your post when looking for things relating to my relative and thought I could share some experience on this.

I believe the power of attorney for health and welfare decisions means you are the decision maker for things for your mum like where she lives and the care she receives when she lacks capacity to make these decisions herself. You have to act in her best interests though as I’m sure you know. As your mum is saying she doesn’t want to move to a care home, the local authority will likely be concerned about how she would move, even if they agreed with you that she required support in a care home. This is because moving her against her will would likely amount to a deprivation of liberty and in those circumstances a court order authorising those steps would be required. It is a safeguard for your mum. I’ve seen a few cases of advocates being involved as has been proposed to you as this is something supported by the Mental Capacity Act when a question around a person’s residence comes up. Again it can be a safeguard for your mum and set out her views which can be tricky for family members.

 

[Kay75]

Hi Kay75,

I came across your post when looking for things relating to my relative and thought I could share some experience on this.

I believe the power of attorney for health and welfare decisions means you are the decision maker for things for your mum like where she lives and the care she receives when she lacks capacity to make these decisions herself. You have to act in her best interests though as I’m sure you know. As your mum is saying she doesn’t want to move to a care home, the local authority will likely be concerned about how she would move, even if they agreed with you that she required support in a care home. This is because moving her against her will would likely amount to a deprivation of liberty and in those circumstances a court order authorising those steps would be required. It is a safeguard for your mum. I’ve seen a few cases of advocates being involved as has been proposed to you as this is something supported by the Mental Capacity Act when a question around a person’s residence comes up. Again it can be a safeguard for your mum and set out her views which can be tricky for family members.

Thank you for the reply. Yes this seems to be what it is about. After speaking to the social services on Friday. We are going to go back to the beginning again of trying carers four times a day and moving her from her bedroom upstairs to a hospital bed in the living room with a commode ( she is confined to the bedroom at the moment with a commode ) we did try this a the beginning of the process back in 2021 but she refused but they have said now that she has lost capacity it is her only choice. It still doesn’t get round the safety issues as it as three story house so still has the stairs and It also gives her access to the front door, but they have said this is the next step and they will use sensors. I think the issue with POA is maybe they need to be more specific about things but when you fill them out . I think also with dementia in our case anyway is my mum doesn’t accept that anything is wrong and she even argues with the GP about it .