EPA help
- Thread starter Mjaqmac
- Start date
That sounds like rubbish. The thing is in England (and I assume NI) there is now no such thing as an Enduring Power of Attorney (unless you had one drawn up and are now registering it).
Hmm - i've checked the public guardianship office and NI doesn't come under them. Let me see what I can find out.
Hmm - i've checked the public guardianship office and NI doesn't come under them. Let me see what I can find out.
O.K - you do seem only to have the option of an EPA (UNITED Kingdom bah humbug)
http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/AboutUs/Useful+Leaflets/p_ul_OfficeofCareandProtection.htm
has several leaflets, and a cursory inspection makes no mention of such a fee. A couple of things to remember though: if you were told that a solicitor might make this charge to be an attorney then that's possible - professionals are allowed to make such charges and/or if someone is appointed by the court to manage another's affairs because they didn't make an EPA, I believe there is an oversight fee charged by the court.
http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/AboutUs/Useful+Leaflets/p_ul_OfficeofCareandProtection.htm
has several leaflets, and a cursory inspection makes no mention of such a fee. A couple of things to remember though: if you were told that a solicitor might make this charge to be an attorney then that's possible - professionals are allowed to make such charges and/or if someone is appointed by the court to manage another's affairs because they didn't make an EPA, I believe there is an oversight fee charged by the court.
Hello Magic
My solicitor has the Original of my husband`s registered EPA and as far as I know I am not being charged for storage. He did say it would be kept for X number of years and to my shame i can`t remember how many.
£600 is ridiculous.
My solicitor has the Original of my husband`s registered EPA and as far as I know I am not being charged for storage. He did say it would be kept for X number of years and to my shame i can`t remember how many.
£600 is ridiculous.
Court Appointed Deputy 'supervision fees' possibly
Was the person who quoted this level of fee living in England?
If so, the figure quoted to you may be connected with the appointment of a Deputy, via the Office of the Public Guardian. (Nothing to do with EPA/LPA) These fees come under the heading of “supervision fees”, and are set by Parliament. But there are exemptions from the need to pay fees, on a sliding scale from zero fees to top-whack fees of about £800.
Was the person who quoted this level of fee living in England?
If so, the figure quoted to you may be connected with the appointment of a Deputy, via the Office of the Public Guardian. (Nothing to do with EPA/LPA) These fees come under the heading of “supervision fees”, and are set by Parliament. But there are exemptions from the need to pay fees, on a sliding scale from zero fees to top-whack fees of about £800.
Sounds like nonsense to me.
Keep in mind that you don;t need to go to a solicitor to create an EPA (or it;s new replacement, an LPA). It may be advisable to do so, however, if you wish to create a complex one such as multiple attorneys, or one with restrictions or one where you stipulate which circumstances under which it may be activated. Power of Attorney is very powerful, so if you want restrictions or conditions, it is advisable to put them in the correct "legal language".
A EPA (and the new one, an LPA) basically is a document in which someone (called the Donor) grants another person or persons (called Attorneys) to manage their affairs - usually when they become mentally incapable of doing so. They can choose anyone they like to do this. The old EPA only granted powers over financial affairs, the new LPA optionally allows for certain health decisions to be made as well. The Donor may restrict one or more Attorneys in what they can do, and may also stipulate that the Power may only be registered should the Donor become incapable (as otherwise, it may be active right away). The Donor must be "mentally competent" at the time the PA is created or it will be invalid. If this is done by a solicitor, they must be sure that the Donor is competent, and may even seek medical confirmation of this.
Once created, you don't need a solicitor to register a PA of either type - you can do that yourself though the Court of Protection. There are one-off fees, but not anything like £600. Registering means the Power becomes active and once processed by the Court the Attorney gains their powers to manage the Donor's affairs.
You can ask a solititor to store a PA document in their vault, and they might charge you for that although many don't.
Of course, a solicitor may charge whatever fees they like for any of their services, and it's up to you to either accept or decline such services.
I;ve never heard of anything like this "annual fee" though.
I believe that if you want "certified" copies of documents, there may be a charge for these.
Keep in mind that you don;t need to go to a solicitor to create an EPA (or it;s new replacement, an LPA). It may be advisable to do so, however, if you wish to create a complex one such as multiple attorneys, or one with restrictions or one where you stipulate which circumstances under which it may be activated. Power of Attorney is very powerful, so if you want restrictions or conditions, it is advisable to put them in the correct "legal language".
A EPA (and the new one, an LPA) basically is a document in which someone (called the Donor) grants another person or persons (called Attorneys) to manage their affairs - usually when they become mentally incapable of doing so. They can choose anyone they like to do this. The old EPA only granted powers over financial affairs, the new LPA optionally allows for certain health decisions to be made as well. The Donor may restrict one or more Attorneys in what they can do, and may also stipulate that the Power may only be registered should the Donor become incapable (as otherwise, it may be active right away). The Donor must be "mentally competent" at the time the PA is created or it will be invalid. If this is done by a solicitor, they must be sure that the Donor is competent, and may even seek medical confirmation of this.
Once created, you don't need a solicitor to register a PA of either type - you can do that yourself though the Court of Protection. There are one-off fees, but not anything like £600. Registering means the Power becomes active and once processed by the Court the Attorney gains their powers to manage the Donor's affairs.
You can ask a solititor to store a PA document in their vault, and they might charge you for that although many don't.
Of course, a solicitor may charge whatever fees they like for any of their services, and it's up to you to either accept or decline such services.
I;ve never heard of anything like this "annual fee" though.
I believe that if you want "certified" copies of documents, there may be a charge for these.
Hi Magic,
Please phone the alzheimer help line. I think they have had a lot of cases of solicitors charging large amounts for the new Lasting Power of Attorney etc, Im sure they can give you some guidance on this issue. Once call could make a lot of difference.
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents.php?categoryID=200273
Kind Regards
Craig
Please phone the alzheimer help line. I think they have had a lot of cases of solicitors charging large amounts for the new Lasting Power of Attorney etc, Im sure they can give you some guidance on this issue. Once call could make a lot of difference.
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents.php?categoryID=200273
Kind Regards
Craig
It is much better to have someone create the LPA (the replacement for EPA, which can no longer be created, although old EPA's both registered and unregistered remain valid) and never need to use it, than not to create one and find that it is needed.
Having power of Attorney can save an enormous amount of trouble and distress in the future.
This is because, if someone loses capacity and there are no existing arranagements the only way forward is to make an application to the Court of Protection. This is time consuming, complicated, more distressing, and more expensive. Also, the Court decides whom to appoint - this might not be who the person would have chosen when they had capacity. It could also be something like the Local Authority.
I would encourage you, if possible, to have an LPA created - this could grant authority over financial matters and also, optionally, some health matters.
Sadly, by the time that many people realise that it would be advantageous to create an LPA it is already too late, as they can only be created if the Donor is "mentally competent" to do it. And of course, if the necessity has arisen then it is quite possible that they are already not "competent" - if they were, you wouldn;t be thinking about it.
I regard EPA/LPA as a kind of insurance policy - one you hope you will never need, but will be glad to have if you do need it.
Let's not forget though Magic is in NI - there is no such thing as an LPA there. You'll have to make it very clear, Magic, that you are in NI whoever you speak too - I think most people have no idea about the differences.
Furthermore unlike in England and Wales I cannot find a "do it yourself" downloadable form for this so you may "have" to use a solicitor to draw it up. There may, however, be forms available for purchase.
P.S. I found this in a helptheaged.org.uk leaflet
"In Northern Ireland there is no prescribed form for setting up
an EPA.The EPA document is drafted by your solicitor
according to your specific needs. Information on registering
Enduring Powers of Attorney, dealing with Estates of People
Suffering from a Mental Disorder and Office of Care and
Protection fees can be obtained direct from:
Office of Care and Protection
Royal Courts of Justice
PO Box 410
Chichester Street
Belfast BT1 3JF
Telephone: 02890 235 111"
However, I also found the Halifax legal services division offers a fill-in form for this. I have no idea how good they are though.
Furthermore unlike in England and Wales I cannot find a "do it yourself" downloadable form for this so you may "have" to use a solicitor to draw it up. There may, however, be forms available for purchase.
P.S. I found this in a helptheaged.org.uk leaflet
"In Northern Ireland there is no prescribed form for setting up
an EPA.The EPA document is drafted by your solicitor
according to your specific needs. Information on registering
Enduring Powers of Attorney, dealing with Estates of People
Suffering from a Mental Disorder and Office of Care and
Protection fees can be obtained direct from:
Office of Care and Protection
Royal Courts of Justice
PO Box 410
Chichester Street
Belfast BT1 3JF
Telephone: 02890 235 111"
However, I also found the Halifax legal services division offers a fill-in form for this. I have no idea how good they are though.
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I have had a power of attorney for the past two years but it has not been registered by a court. Ken has a small pension (very, very small indeed) and recently the company sending the pension sent a letter requesting his signature. I guided his hand to sign but it came back together with another form stating that the signature did not agree with their records. Yesterday I sent a copy of the unregistered POA together with a letter from the local council dated last month regarding his admission to the Care Home and also a recent bank account statement where the pension is paid into.
Today I went to the solicitors to have the POA registered and was told it would cost me £600. Although absolutely staggered by this cost I did go forward with it as I may need it at some future date for any private pension issues. I am already registered as his representative with the Dept Works & Pensuions. The house which we bought two years ago is in my sole name and we only have one joint bank account which is for his small private pension payments. Our 'working' bank account is in my name only.
I'm now thinking I made a huge mistake in letting the socilitor go ahead with registering at this exhorbitant price.
Should I phone her up on Monday morning and tell her not to go ahead? Unfortunately I never thought to phone the AZ Helpline for advice first and as it is now weekend, this would have to be Monday before I got advice from them
xxTinaT
Today I went to the solicitors to have the POA registered and was told it would cost me £600. Although absolutely staggered by this cost I did go forward with it as I may need it at some future date for any private pension issues. I am already registered as his representative with the Dept Works & Pensuions. The house which we bought two years ago is in my sole name and we only have one joint bank account which is for his small private pension payments. Our 'working' bank account is in my name only.
I'm now thinking I made a huge mistake in letting the socilitor go ahead with registering at this exhorbitant price.
Should I phone her up on Monday morning and tell her not to go ahead? Unfortunately I never thought to phone the AZ Helpline for advice first and as it is now weekend, this would have to be Monday before I got advice from them
xxTinaT
Tina - the fee the guardianship office charges for registering an EPA is £120. Even assuming that there might be a charges for copies etc this £600 is so out of line. It is fairly straight forward to DIY - instructions and forms are on the guardianship website. I would definitely be inclined to tell the solicitor to take a running jump. If you want clarification from the help-line, call the solicitor first thing and just tell them to hold on before doing anything, then call the help-line. You could even call the solicitors office number tomorrow - they probably have an answer machine and tell them not to act before they've spoken to you.
This profiteering makes my blood boil.
This profiteering makes my blood boil.
Jennifer, you are a DARLING. I have been worrying myself sick with this all night. Tomorrow morning I will see if there is anyone in the Solicitor's office and tell them to hang fire. I so need to sort this out. I was so shocked that I think my mind went blank when she told me the price. I will have to get some good advice before I do anything regarding this.
I did tell her I thought it was a very high price and she said that she had 27 pages of work to do and she felt it was a fair price for the work involved!!!! I don't think so but will need to 'gen myself up' before I can decide what to do.
Thank you so much Jennifer.
xxTinaT
ps I was surprised that this thread had disappeared so quickly from the new posts page as I had only just posted and the thread was moved. I had to struggle through the search engine to get it back up to read your reply.
xxTinaT
I did tell her I thought it was a very high price and she said that she had 27 pages of work to do and she felt it was a fair price for the work involved!!!! I don't think so but will need to 'gen myself up' before I can decide what to do.
Thank you so much Jennifer.
xxTinaT
ps I was surprised that this thread had disappeared so quickly from the new posts page as I had only just posted and the thread was moved. I had to struggle through the search engine to get it back up to read your reply.
xxTinaT
Hi Majqmac
If you already have drawn up an EPA, it can be invoked/brought into action for £120 payable to the Court of Protection. That was the latest figure I saw last week. Open to amendment.
There is no annual fee, once it is invoked nothing more needs to be done. As someone said, if you need authorised copies you might need to go to a solictor to get them, and they could charge £20 per copy for signing the copy.
I know nothing about the new powers of attorney, cannot comment.
Regards
Margaret
If you already have drawn up an EPA, it can be invoked/brought into action for £120 payable to the Court of Protection. That was the latest figure I saw last week. Open to amendment.
There is no annual fee, once it is invoked nothing more needs to be done. As someone said, if you need authorised copies you might need to go to a solictor to get them, and they could charge £20 per copy for signing the copy.
I know nothing about the new powers of attorney, cannot comment.
Regards
Margaret
I don't know where my post has gone, but if it turns up, I did not appreciate we needed to look at Northern Ireland, so what I said might be rubbish.
Margaret
Margaret
£600 sounds very expensive. Registering an existing EPA is relatively simple - you basically have to inform the Court, plus you have to inform the Donor and three relatives (the three being chosen in the order of "closeness" to the Donor, there is the usual order). The Court itself charges £120. I believe the necessity of informing the Donor can be waived if you have written confirmation from a doctor that so informing would cause distress.
So, the process is not complex. However, from a solicitor point of view, there is quite a lot to charge for because they work on the principle of charging you for the air you breathe whilst you're in their building.
So it does not suprise me that shuffling some documents about and sending some letters would cost a lot if it's all done by a solicitor, but it's by no means necessary to have one do it.
So, the process is not complex. However, from a solicitor point of view, there is quite a lot to charge for because they work on the principle of charging you for the air you breathe whilst you're in their building.
So it does not suprise me that shuffling some documents about and sending some letters would cost a lot if it's all done by a solicitor, but it's by no means necessary to have one do it.
I was told yesterday by my mother's solicitor that I have a legal obligation to register the EPA with the Court of Protection if the donor "is or is becoming mentally infirm". She was of the opinion that as my mother's GP has signed to say that she has a severe mental impairment for Council Tax purposes then that is evidence that I should register it.
She said (as somebody above mentioned) that close relatives will be informed and that my mother will have to be told. The comment from somebody on here that if there is is medical evidence that this would cause distress than it can be omitted is helpful, as my mother will go ballistic about it until she forgets.
I wasn't pleased to be told this as to be honest I have been dreading it as my mother will be so horrible as money and bills are the things that she is still obsessive about - not that she deals with them as I have posted before. So I rang a friend of mine who is a solicitor and she confirmed what I had been told and was very firm with me that I must do it.
It does look as though the time has come to take responsibility off her - which will be better for all concerned (but more work for me) but she will be absolutely foul at first and I'm dreading it.
She said (as somebody above mentioned) that close relatives will be informed and that my mother will have to be told. The comment from somebody on here that if there is is medical evidence that this would cause distress than it can be omitted is helpful, as my mother will go ballistic about it until she forgets.
I wasn't pleased to be told this as to be honest I have been dreading it as my mother will be so horrible as money and bills are the things that she is still obsessive about - not that she deals with them as I have posted before. So I rang a friend of mine who is a solicitor and she confirmed what I had been told and was very firm with me that I must do it.
It does look as though the time has come to take responsibility off her - which will be better for all concerned (but more work for me) but she will be absolutely foul at first and I'm dreading it.
Rose
Your Mother is like mine was and we did not send her notice of the EPA registration for just those reasons
She had lost all ability with money
we found cheques and dividends and unpaid bills going back 6 months
It took me nearly 6 months even with the EPA to get things straight and just when i had acheived that she died and i had to deal with probate
so just send notices to the other relatives and then bit by bit take over control
If your Mother has Vascular Dementia she really wont be aware of whats going on
Your Mother is like mine was and we did not send her notice of the EPA registration for just those reasons
She had lost all ability with money
we found cheques and dividends and unpaid bills going back 6 months
It took me nearly 6 months even with the EPA to get things straight and just when i had acheived that she died and i had to deal with probate
so just send notices to the other relatives and then bit by bit take over control
If your Mother has Vascular Dementia she really wont be aware of whats going on
That is correct. However, the guidance on the Court's pages indicate that you must register the EPA if you as the Attorney believe that they are or are becoming incapable of managing their affairs which is different from mentally infirm
I believe that you can apply to the Court for a dispensation to inform the donor - this is a separate application that you make before you register the EPA and would certainly require clear medical evidence that it would cause distress on the behalf of the Donor.
