NHS Continuing Healthcare to be Featured on BBC Radio 4’s Inside Health Programme

jeany123

Registered User
Mar 24, 2012
19,034
0
74
Durham
Hello Lena and welcome to Talking Point, I can't help but am sure there will be help for you tomorrow when there are more people on here, There is some very misleading information on this thread and maybe opening another thread will give you more correct advice in the meantime there are lots of threads on here about CHC funding that you might like to read,
 
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WILLIAMR

Account Closed
Apr 12, 2014
1,078
0
It is not up SWs who apply for CHC funding nor who warrants it. In fact it is usually, the hospital concerned that applies because it is given for health rather than social needs. The SW will have input but they cannot influence the eventual outcome. In both my husband's applications, the Checklist was completed by my husband's nurse with some input from myself.
I do think the case of your SM was possibly coincidence.

CHC funding rules are pretty much controlled by the completion of the CHC tool wherever one lives though, of course this is open to differing interpretations.
I believe CRAG is set in stone nationally.

Hi Saffie

CRAG definitely applies nationally but I think councils / social workers conveniently forget it and try to persuade sons / daughters to downsize and that will mean money will become available to pay the fees.
In all cases I have helped with I have had to step in with the CRAG rules re joint ownership. I don't think I am liked by the social workers as one tried to get me banned from the meetings.
I think the checklist can be subject to interpretation. In one case they did not want to put a violence incident in the report as it happened when the father was settling in according to the assessor so I think they were trying to play the problems down.
Fortunately the son was still in contact with 2 patients who witnessed it.

In one case I was sitting in on an assessment in a care home and the daughter was there.
The assessor said the parent qualified for CHC funding at the time of the assessment but would probably not next year.
The assessor said sell their jointly owned home and get a smaller place.
The daughter spoke to the nurse in the home and she said that the parent was unlikely to be alive in 6 months never mind a year.
The care home nurse was correct.
What was the sense in telling the daughter to get involved in a house move at a time she was wanting to visit the parent as much as possible?.

William
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
Hi Saffie

CRAG definitely applies nationally but I think councils / social workers conveniently forget it and try to persuade sons / daughters to downsize and that will mean money will become available to pay the fees.
In all cases I have helped with I have had to step in with the CRAG rules re joint ownership. I don't think I am liked by the social workers as one tried to get me banned from the meetings.
I think the checklist can be subject to interpretation. In one case they did not want to put a violence incident in the report as it happened when the father was settling in according to the assessor so I think they were trying to play the problems down.
Fortunately the son was still in contact with 2 patients who witnessed it.

In one case I was sitting in on an assessment in a care home and the daughter was there.
The assessor said the parent qualified for CHC funding at the time of the assessment but would probably not next year.
The assessor said sell their jointly owned home and get a smaller place.
The daughter spoke to the nurse in the home and she said that the parent was unlikely to be alive in 6 months never mind a year.
The care home nurse was correct.
What was the sense in telling the daughter to get involved in a house move at a time she was wanting to visit the parent as much as possible?.

William

William

I can't understand why everyone (Assessors/SW's)you come into contact with appear to have only one topic of conversation; i.e. getting people to sell their homes when they don't have to. Personally I've never come across this before. Are you just unlucky?

Assessors do make sure that the patient's representative are aware that CHC can be withdrawn if the said patient no longer passes the criteria for funding at the next assessment.

As far as not documenting (on the checklist) one incident of violence, well I'm not sure that one incident would have received a score -even a low one. It should have been documented in the hospital/ch records though. Behaviour scores relate to often repeated incidents; depending on the level of unpredictability and intensity it will be given a low, medium or high score.

Lyn
 

miggie

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
26
0
Midlands
Once again I have to agree with Lyn. I cannot understand why WILLIAMR keeps relating the sale of property to CHC funding. They is absolutely no connection - CHC is awarded for primary healthcare needs and ownership of property is irrelevant to the assessment.
 

WILLIAMR

Account Closed
Apr 12, 2014
1,078
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William

I can't understand why everyone (Assessors/SW's)you come into contact with appear to have only one topic of conversation; i.e. getting people to sell their homes when they don't have to. Personally I've never come across this before. Are you just unlucky?

Assessors do make sure that the patient's representative are aware that CHC can be withdrawn if the said patient no longer passes the criteria for funding at the next assessment.

As far as not documenting (on the checklist) one incident of violence, well I'm not sure that one incident would have received a score -even a low one. It should have been documented in the hospital/ch records though. Behaviour scores relate to often repeated incidents; depending on the level of unpredictability and intensity it will be given a low, medium or high score.

Lyn

Hi Lyn

May be I have been unlucky as I have only helped in a limited number of cases.
3 councils are involved.
We have complained and 1 of the councils has admitted wrong advice re property and other matters was being given by social workers but they said training is taking place which will be completed by the end of 2014.
I accept if it is class room type training it may take that sort of time but I would have thought the info could be got out via a general circular or training over the internet.
The council did say the way the ownership was set up with my bungalow was less common but it is being covered in the training. The council said that some social workers have possibly not come across it which I accept.
We are reminding the other 2 about our complaints as we have had no response.
With regard to half a property being inherited from a deceased parent I know several people who have set their wills up in this way so I find it hard to believe that any social worker with say 5 years of experience would not have come across it.
What I do hope is if wrong advice has been given out and people have suffered as a result they will be compensated.
The problem is I suspect the council will say the records have now been destroyed after so long or people may not be contactable.

William
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
Hi Lyn

May be I have been unlucky as I have only helped in a limited number of cases.
3 councils are involved.
We have complained and 1 of the councils has admitted wrong advice re property and other matters was being given by social workers but they said training is taking place which will be completed by the end of 2014.
I accept if it is class room type training it may take that sort of time but I would have thought the info could be got out via a general circular or training over the internet.
The council did say the way the ownership was set up with my bungalow was less common but it is being covered in the training. The council said that some social workers have possibly not come across it which I accept.
We are reminding the other 2 about our complaints as we have had no response.
With regard to half a property being inherited from a deceased parent I know several people who have set their wills up in this way so I find it hard to believe that any social worker with say 5 years of experience would not have come across it.
What I do hope is if wrong advice has been given out and people have suffered as a result they will be compensated.
The problem is I suspect the council will say the records have now been destroyed after so long or people may not be contactable.

William

Wlliam

I do accept that, in the scenarios that you have comprehensively outlined, that you were given incorrect advice; however, I have to say that repeatedly throughout this thread you have also posted incorrect and contradictory narrative i.e. linking CHC to finances and property ownership. This is why I question what you have written.

I would hate members, particularly new ones who are at the start of applying for CHC, to get the wrong idea. We are here to help-some more comprehensively than others- but we have to stick to the facts regarding CHC. It is so important that people follow the guidelines if they have to appeal etc. Whether assessors follow the guidelines is, of course, another matter.

As mentioned in my last post one incidence of violence would not lead to a 'positive' score on a checklist (someone correct me please if I'm wrong). This gives false 'hope' that CHC is awarded for one off incidents. In my experience that is not so. Assessment is taken for a number of scores in quite a few domains.

Lyn
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Hi Lyn

May be I have been unlucky as I have only helped in a limited number of cases.
3 councils are involved.
We have complained and 1 of the councils has admitted wrong advice re property and other matters was being given by social workers but they said training is taking place which will be completed by the end of 2014.
I accept if it is class room type training it may take that sort of time but I would have thought the info could be got out via a general circular or training over the internet.
The council did say the way the ownership was set up with my bungalow was less common but it is being covered in the training. The council said that some social workers have possibly not come across it which I accept.
We are reminding the other 2 about our complaints as we have had no response.
With regard to half a property being inherited from a deceased parent I know several people who have set their wills up in this way so I find it hard to believe that any social worker with say 5 years of experience would not have come across it.
What I do hope is if wrong advice has been given out and people have suffered as a result they will be compensated.
The problem is I suspect the council will say the records have now been destroyed after so long or people may not be contactable.
William

This thread is supposed to be the provision of CHC funding but your responses seem to be about Social Services and the LA which we keep saying has nothing to do with it.

I'm afraid I may be dense but I fail to see the relevance between the SS trying to persuade someone to sell a house - which I'm not doubting for a moment - and being awarded CHC
funding.

The only time it would be relevant is if funding was refused or withdrawn at a later date but then it would only be the LA involved and nothing at all to do with the CHC team.

Incidentally, one or two episodes of violent behaviour will not warrant CHC funding. I was told that in connection with my husband.

I am also a bit confused by your saying that the SWs and the CHC team were in the same office as they serve different authorities.


Sent from my iPod touch using Talking Point mobile app
 

Lena99

Registered User
Oct 1, 2014
11
0
Halesowen
Have a look at the Checklist and Decision Support Tool which are used in the assessment (the checklist first - if he gets a certain number of As or Bs this will trigger a full assessment). The checklist and assessment are done by a nurse assessor and I imagine someone from the care home will be able to speak about the care he needs.

It looks complicated but it is looking at certain areas of health needs - mobility, cognition, etc. and assessing the nature of the person's needs and how complex, intense and unpredictable they are. It sounds as if he scores highly on all three.

They go through each of the categories one by one and you have a chance to give your input. You need to bring up the points you have made here about incontinence, hallucinations and his aggressive behaviour and anything else you can think of under the different categories. Point out the severity of the behaviour, etc. and how one thing impacts on another, for instance, how he reacts if his catheter needs changing, whether any medication he is given is effective or if it has side-effects that impact on his other illnesses; his refusal to take medication, therefore worsening his hallucinations; what effect his Parkinson's has on him. Make notes beforehand and go prepared.



Thank you Nita, She did go over the Decision Support Tool which consists of 11 levels of need, each going from 'no needs' to 'severe' and 4 go up to 'priority'. She said that he needed 1 'priority' or 2 'severe' to pass the assessment and he got 3 'high', 4 'moderate', 2 'low' and 2 'no needs'. Since the assessment was done he is worse but they still say that he hasn't got any into the 'severe' category. When I asked about the cognition and said that he didn't know where he was, who he was and a lot of the time who I was, she asked if he recognised me at all. When I said he did sometimes she said that left him in the 'high' but not the 'severe'. On the mobility she said he would have to be practically paraplegic to be classed as 'severe'. However, I have read on the net that they don't have to meet this criteria, he could be passed with 5 'moderate' or 1 'high' and 4 'moderate' but I don't know if this will be accepted at the appeal.

It does seem to be a post-code lottery, I know a few people in the Worcestershire area who have received CHC for their partner and they didn't seem to be as ill as my husband is. We are in the Dudley area and I've been told that they are much stricter - I don't understand this as surely it should be the same over the UK and not applied differently in each borough? They also said that his needs were predictable which I don't agree with but how can I argue when I'm not medical? They just said that I didn't understand the criteria and the one lady said that I could appeal but - quote 'you won't get anywhere' which got my fighting spirit up!!

Do you know anyone I could call who could be an advocate because I can't find anyone?
 

Lena99

Registered User
Oct 1, 2014
11
0
Halesowen
Hello Lena and welcome to Talking Point, I can't help but am sure there will be help for you tomorrow when there are more people on here, There is some very misleading information on this thread and maybe opening another thread will give you more correct advice in the meantime there are lots of threads on here about CHC funding that you might like to read,



Thanks Jeany - unfortunately that link doesn't seem to work. I will wait until tomorrow and see if anyone has any suggestions or advice.
 

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,712
0
North West
I'm concerned that this thread keeps being hijacked despite extraordinarily patient and valiant attempts by some members to keep it on track.

CHC funding will be a topic of great interest and concern to many members.

Did anyone catch the programme? If so, was there anything said that people really need to know?

I think this link will take us to the programme (not had time to listen yet as I've been wading through treacle reading the thread):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b019dl1b
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Thank you Nita, She did go over the Decision Support Tool which consists of 11 levels of need, each going from 'no needs' to 'severe' and 4 go up to 'priority'. She said that he needed 1 'priority' or 2 'severe' to pass the assessment and he got 3 'high', 4 'moderate', 2 'low' and 2 'no needs'. Since the assessment was done he is worse but they still say that he hasn't got any into the 'severe' category. When I asked about the cognition and said that he didn't know where he was, who he was and a lot of the time who I was, she asked if he recognised me at all. When I said he did sometimes she said that left him in the 'high' but not the 'severe'. On the mobility she said he would have to be practically paraplegic to be classed as 'severe'. However, I have read on the net that they don't have to meet this criteria, he could be passed with 5 'moderate' or 1 'high' and 4 'moderate' but I don't know if this will be accepted at the appeal.

It does seem to be a post-code lottery, I know a few people in the Worcestershire area who have received CHC for their partner and they didn't seem to be as ill as my husband is. We are in the Dudley area and I've been told that they are much stricter - I don't understand this as surely it should be the same over the UK and not applied differently in each borough? They also said that his needs were predictable which I don't agree with but how can I argue when I'm not medical? They just said that I didn't understand the criteria and the one lady said that I could appeal but - quote 'you won't get anywhere' which got my fighting spirit up!!

Do you know anyone I could call who could be an advocate because I can't find anyone?


O thank goodnes - 'real' CHC stuff!
Lena I'm afraid that it is more difficult to gain a 'Severe' for some areas than others.
At the risk of boring you and others who already know but just in case it might help, I'll outline my experience.

My husband's dementia worsened drastically after an amputation at upper thigh level and by the time he was assessed the first time in a community hospital for mental health, he was unable to walk, had MRSA in the wound and had gangrene in his remaining foot as well as frequent pressure sores. He also was an insulin-dependent diabetic with peripheral vascular and also Stage3 kidney disease. He was on Rispiridone for aggresision, paranoia and hallucinations. He was refused CHC funding, never getting beyond the Checklist.

He was transferred to a nursing home and I re-applied in September 2012, when the deadline came for retrospective applications. I applied for both retrospective and forward CHC. The nurse in the home said he would not get the funding but I ignored her.
He was by this time, totally dependent on carers for his every need. He had to be hoisted for everything and fed his meals. He was totally cognitively confused and it is doubtful if he knew me but as he was no longer able to communicate in any way that made sense, it was impossible to know.

He was bed-bound apart from 4 hours a day in his special electronic chair due to his fragile skin condition and was moved every 2 hours to try to prevent pressure sores. He also had ulcers on his hand from his permanently clenched fist which nothing was able to help despite the nurses' and GP's best efforts.
He of course still had the previously mentioned illnesses though the home had cleared up the gangrene and the MRSA.
He had also hit a carer and could be very aggresive at times though, as I have earlier mentioned, the assessor said it had to be far more frequent to merit the funding.

This time, in September 2013, he passed the Checklist but was still only in the 'moderate' catergory for Mobility - despite the fact that he was hoisted at all times, barely able to move at all by himself and couldn't even lean forward!

The full assessment was arranged for early May 2014 - not the 28 days as it should have been - but I rang the CHC team the day before to ask if it was ok for my daugher to accompany me and was told that the assessment next day was cancelled because the SW had not supplied their report. Hardly surprising as no SW had been near my husband so what she could have written would have been of no use whatsoever!

That was the last I heard of it! No further assessment date was ever given and my husband died on 10th June. I have received no further communication from them.
Actually, writing this has made me decide to contact them.
Had my husband passed the assessment, they would have had to refund the fees from the date of the assessment, some 9 months worth.

I haven't felt up to taken this further but may well do so and if I do, it will now be retrospective of course which could very well include the time from the first failed assessment too! If I do, I think I might employ a solicitor though I worked so hard to get all the evidence for that last assessment, it would be a shame to pass it all over.

As to what you can do Lena, I would contact Carers UK - a lady from there was really helpful before this last assessment and was prepared to accompany me on the day but was already engaged elsewhere. She ran though all my evidence and pointed out extra points to include. The Princess Royal Trust for Carers can also help.

Alternatively, or as well as, contact the Appeals group of the AS. Details will be via the society's link at the top of the page. I did this and a very helpful lady rang me and was most supportive.
Good luck. x
 
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LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
I'm concerned that this thread keeps being hijacked despite extraordinarily patient and valiant attempts by some members to keep it on track.

CHC funding will be a topic of great interest and concern to many members.

Did anyone catch the programme? If so, was there anything said that people really need to know?

I think this link will take us to the programme (not had time to listen yet as I've been wading through treacle reading the thread):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b019dl1b

I did catch the programe Stanley

Most of it covered what we all know i'm afraid. A dire business if ever there was one. There was one gentleman on who was a medical consultant who admitted that he didn't know the ins and outs of CHC. :eek: Off the top of my head he applied for his relative in the 90's. (may have got that wrong). If HE found the whole procedure daunting bless the rest of us who have to fight this injustice.

Lena-I'm so sorry that there is another member of TP having to go through this. If you can please take Saffie's advice and phone the Appeals dept of the AS and Carers UK. Keep hold of that fighting spirit-don't let them grind you down.

Saffie-good on you M'Lady-it will be daunting for you to pick up from where you left off but good for you for even thinking about it.

Keep fighting everyone

Lyn T
 

Lena99

Registered User
Oct 1, 2014
11
0
Halesowen
O thank goodnes - 'real' CHC stuff!
Lena I'm afraid that it is more difficult to gain a 'Severe' for some areas than others.
At the risk of boring you and others who already know but just in case it might help, I'll outline my experience.

My husband's dementia worsened drastically after an amputation at upper thigh level and by the time he was assessed the first time in a community hospital for mental health, he was unable to walk, had MRSA in the wound and had gangrene in his remaining foot as well as frequent pressure sores. He also was an insulin-dependent diabetic with peripheral vascular and also Stage3 kidney disease. He was on Rispiridone for aggresision, paranoia and hallucinations. He was refused CHC funding, never getting beyond the Checklist.

He was transferred to a nursing home and I re-applied in September 2012, when the deadline came for retrospective applications. I applied for both retrospective and forward CHC. The nurse in the home said he would not get the funding but I ignored her.
He was by this time, totally dependent on carers for his every need. He had to be hoisted for everything and fed his meals. He was totally cognitively confused and it is doubtful if he knew me but as he was no longer able to communicate in any way that made sense, it was impossible to know.

He was bed-bound apart from 4 hours a day in his special electronic chair due to his fragile skin condition and was moved every 2 hours to try to prevent pressure sores. He also had ulcers on his hand from his permanently clenched fist which nothing was able to help despite the nurses' and GP's best efforts.
He of course still had the previously mentioned illnesses though the home had cleared up the gangrene and the MRSA.
He had also hit a carer and could be very aggresive at times though, as I have earlier mentioned, the assessor said it had to be far more frequent to merit the funding.

This time, in September 2013, he passed the Checklist but was still only in the 'moderate' catergory for Mobility - despite the fact that he was hoisted at all times, barely able to move at all by himself and couldn't even lean forward!

The full assessment was arranged for early May 2014 - not the 28 days as it should have been - but I rang the CHC team the day before to ask if it was ok for my daugher to accompany me and was told that the assessment next day was cancelled because the SW had not supplied their report. Hardly surprising as no SW had been near my husband so what she could have written would have been of no use whatsoever!

That was the last I heard of it! No further assessment date was ever given and my husband died on 10th June. I have received no further communication from them.
Actually, writing this has made me decide to contact them.
Had my husband passed the assessment, they would have had to refund the fees from the date of the assessment, some 9 months worth.

I haven't felt up to taken this further but may well do so and if I do, it will now be retrospective of course which could very well include the time from the first failed assessment too! If I do, I think I might employ a solicitor though I worked so hard to get all the evidence for that last assessment, it would be a shame to pass it all over.

As to what you can do Lena, I would contact Carers UK - a lady from there was really helpful before this last assessment and was prepared to accompany me on the day but was already engaged elsewhere. She ran though all my evidence and pointed out extra points to include. The Princess Royal Trust for Carers can also help.

Alternatively, or as well as, contact the Appeals group of the AS. Details will be via the society's link at the top of the page. I did this and a very helpful lady rang me and was most supportive.
Good luck. x

Thank you Saffie, I'm sorry to hear of your loss and experience with system, but not surprised, the nurse at the Care Home said that some of the approvals came through after the patient had died which, as she said, saves the LA a lot of money.

I will try both of those you recommended. I feel that I am a lone voice shouting in the wind 'but he is ill' and no one listens.

Thank you everyone, your advice is very much appreciated! xxx
 

Lena99

Registered User
Oct 1, 2014
11
0
Halesowen
I'm concerned that this thread keeps being hijacked despite extraordinarily patient and valiant attempts by some members to keep it on track.

CHC funding will be a topic of great interest and concern to many members.

Did anyone catch the programme? If so, was there anything said that people really need to know?

I think this link will take us to the programme (not had time to listen yet as I've been wading through treacle reading the thread):



Sorry Stanley! I've just joined and don't know how to start a new thread, I just saw the topic that I needed advice on and I was so thrilled that I jumped in with both feet. xx
 

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,712
0
North West
Sorry Stanley! I've just joined and don't know how to start a new thread, I just saw the topic that I needed advice on and I was so thrilled that I jumped in with both feet. xx

No problems at all with your posts Lena.

I was referring to earlier posts in the thread.

The Help section (top right) has really good explanations including how to start a new thread.

Take care
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
I do not doubt anyone's sincerity on this forum and on advice gleamed from here I have never taken it as absolute fact without doing my own research nor checking it with numerous other threads.

As a fairly newbie to this forum I had a good old search first before asking a question but not with everything and sometimes I have pointed in the direction, normally by those that have been here a while, of previous threads that I had missed. However some threads can be from a while back, drifted away from the original question and who is to know if things have stayed the same or if someone with a new or old story can make me have a light bulb moment?

The system we have to go through for even the basics in dementia care is a nightmare and as has been proven in just this thread that often even the professionals do not know what they are on about.

The one thing I have learnt in the 7 months I have been battling the system is that whoever you deal with regarding long term care provided by the NHS or LA is that their first priority is not the wellbeing of the individual but who is going to pay.

Maybe harsh to some but definitely my experience.

They will often fight between themselves although it seems that it is easier to try it on first with NoK by giving out miss-information, not giving the correct information or by down right lies.

If you have been lucky enough not to have that experience then I am truly happy for you.

I do feel there is a bit unfair criticism by some on one persons, WilliamR, experience. I have taken what he said as just that, his experience. He has not said this is the only way things are done nor has he said that anyone should follow his lead. He is just recounting his experience.

I have no problem if someone repeats themselves. I am sure it has been done before by many on here and who is to know if someone might have missed it first, second...time around but now finds it relevant.

I can always skim past any repetition if needs be. No big deal.



I'm afraid I may be dense but I fail to see the relevance between the SS trying to persuade someone to sell a house - which I'm not doubting for a moment - and being awarded CHC funding.
My experience is that the two agencies do share the same offices and have the same goals. Which is to find someone else to pay.

however, I have to say that repeatedly throughout this thread you have also posted incorrect and contradictory narrative i.e. linking CHC to finances and property ownership. This is why I question what you have written.

I would hate members, particularly new ones who are at the start of applying for CHC, to get the wrong idea....... but we have to stick to the facts regarding CHC.......It is so important that people follow the guidelines if they have to appeal etc. Whether assessors follow the guidelines is, of course, another matter.

As mentioned in my last post one incidence of violence would not lead to a 'positive' score on a checklist (someone correct me please if I'm wrong). This gives false 'hope' that CHC is awarded for one off incidents. In my experience that is not so. Assessment is taken for a number of scores in quite a few domains.
Lyn
(my highlights)

What facts? There are numerous different interpretations of the CHC on here. Everyone's experience is invaluable to me as we all know that the laid down regulations are open to interpretation by whoever has read them. One persons experience may resonate with mine or indeed prove invaluable.

I do not question your experience as you do others.



IThere was one gentleman on who was a medical consultant who admitted that he didn't know the ins and outs of CHC.
Absolutely no reason why he should. His job would be to pass people on along the line to those who he thinks should know.

If they all did there would be no need for this forum. Would there?