What are the legal implications of removing my schizophrenic mother out of a care home, and taking her home?

[EricJones]

If her schizophrenia symptoms have stabilised, she may well have capacity to contribute to the discussion herself.

She was only released from a mental hospital last week.

But bottom line at some point social services will want to be assured your mum’s needs can be met under your direct care or alternative care that you have sourced for her. If you can and they are not paying then a discussion could well be h…

You mean after they track us down, after we make a fly by night escape? If at the end of that assessment process they decide her needs aren't being met, and they take her into another care home, perhaps it will be one closer to my home, rather than 100 miles away, which would be a major step forward... also because it's unlikely to be as bad as where this care worker has trapped her in now, which can't be changed, she said. Wish I'd been asked for my input regarding her choice of care home, but I wasn't. At all.

Hope you don't mind my asking, but what you mean by "could well be h…"?

 

[nitram]

How can I discover the specifics of that "assessed care"? Via the care home manager? The social care services?

The latter,

Who are they and what do they do?

They (adult safeguarding) protect an adult's right to live safely free from neglect or abuse.
Ring the main LA switchboard and ask to be connected, plus external number for future use,

 

[EricJones]

@EricJones if you take your mum away with out having conversations with the professionals involved you will be getting yourself in a big heap of trouble and maybe it’s not the best thing for your mum. If there is a DOLS then she can’t just leave, if she can just leave of her own free will then you will need access to her medication which you don’t have. Please speak with social services , get the info you need to make an informed choice and then make a plan.

Thank you, yes it all needs careful thought. Looking after my own mother is so labyrinthine, now that the care services are so involved. Where the heck are my rights?

 

[nitram]

@EricJones
Try to stop worrying about could happen, attempt to get some facts, state of DoLS, discharge from hospital care plan, ask LA to assess.

If she is assessed as having capacity ask her about granting POAs

 

[EricJones]

The latter,

They (adult safeguarding) protect an adult's right to live safely free from neglect or abuse.
Ring the main LA switchboard and ask to be connected, plus external number for future use,

Thanks, the Care Quality Commission have already provided a case reference number. Weird thing about the CQC is, they refuse to tell you what they've noted from your conversation - they insist you do a Subject Access Request, when all I wanted was to make sure they didn't miss anything out. Or FOI request. Their call handlers don't seem to be well trained, I believe they missed big important details.

I was considering ringing the Anti-Social Behaviour department about that incessant loud "BING BONG!" noise machine. If something like that was going off constantly in my house and was disturbing my neighbours all night every night, it could become a ASB matter. The resident shouting abuse at my mother every mealtime is also ASB.

 

[EricJones]

If she is assessed as having capacity ask her about granting POAs

When she was mentally stable at her last care home, she wasn't deemed to have capacity, therefore I think POAs being granted is unlikely, but thank you. I'll ask.

 

[nitram]

When she was mentally stable at her last care home, she wasn't deemed to have capacity, therefore I think POAs being granted is unlikely, but thank you. I'll ask.

This means a DoLS is likely, ask adult safeguarding.

 

[sdmhred]

Oh whoops I only meant to say a discussion could be had.

But if you find out she lacks capacity then a best interests meeting is the way forward. You show how you plan to have your mum’s needs met plus highlight the difficulties in the current care situation.

 

[I thank you for the years]

Hi @EricJones

If your Mum is deemed not to have capacity to consent to being in the care home then the DOLS process should have been initiated.

I suspect that it won’t have been completed yet due to appalling delays in the process. As indicated in the information in the weblink below completed DoLS applications took an average of 156 days during 2022-23 – over seven times the 21-day statutory timescale.

https://www.communitycare.co.uk/202...failure-to-tackle-huge-backlog-warns-charity/

When a DoLS application was made for my Mum I was included in the process. I did have Power of Attorney for Health & Welfare for my Mum but I think I would have been included anyway as next of kin.

The Social Worker who carried out the DoLS Best Interest Assessment shared with me the following information about the role of the representative within the process. You may want to register your interest in carrying out this role in your mother’s case.

https://mental-capacity.co.uk/relevant-persons-representative-rpr/

Best wishes

 

[Anjona]

@EricJones My mother-in-law was living with us but on a visit to her other son she suffered stoke and was admitted to hospital. Whilst there, she was admitted into a care home on a discharge to assess. Her social worker deemed her as without capacity and as no POA was in place deemed it in her best interests to live at the care home permanently. She came to this conclusions aft talking to my brother-in-law only. Neither I nor my partner were consulted. She was really upset and crying all the time describing it as a prison saying repeatedly that she did not want to be there and as care staff put it "trying to escape". Despite all of this, no DOLS was made. We tried to talk to the social worker about this, and had a meeting with her where she was completely intransigent. I made a formal complaint about her with one of the grounds being that she failed to make a proper assessment by speaking family members other than my brother-in-law. I also said in my complaint that I wanted a "best interests" meeting was held to decide what was best for my mother-in-law. The social worker was taken off the case as a result of the complaint and we were given a much more reasonable social worker and following a best interest meeting it was agreed that she could return to us at home. The outcome of the complaint was that there was an agreement that we should have been consulted about the decision to put her into a care home and we received an apology. Following this my brother-in-law got a bill for the time she was in the care home. I complained again about this and used the outcome of the original complaint to get them to withdraw the bill which they agreed to do.

I would say, it would be best for your mother if there was agreement on all sides about what was to happen to her. If she does not have a DOLS in place nor has been referred for a DOLS (they are meant to do this if you mother event says she doesnt want to be there ONCE) you can request community advocacy to have input on this (depends which County you are in as to what this is and often there are long waiting lists. In my very limited experience I dont really think care home comply with this and rely and people not knowing their rights. If you are unhappy about your mother's situation, I would recommend that you do put in a complaint. It will protect both your and your mother's interests and give the care home an opportunity to address those complaints.

I hope that this helps. Take care

 

[EricJones]

Hi @EricJones

If your Mum is deemed not to have capacity to consent to being in the care home then the DOLS process should have been initiated.

I suspect that it won’t have been completed yet due to appalling delays in the process. As indicated in the information in the weblink below completed DoLS applications took an average of 156 days during 2022-23 – over seven times the 21-day statutory timescale.

https://www.communitycare.co.uk/202...failure-to-tackle-huge-backlog-warns-charity/

When a DoLS application was made for my Mum I was included in the process. I did have Power of Attorney for Health & Welfare for my Mum but I think I would have been included anyway as next of kin.

The Social Worker who carried out the DoLS Best Interest Assessment shared with me the following information about the role of the representative within the process. You may want to register your interest in carrying out this role in your mother’s case.

https://mental-capacity.co.uk/relevant-persons-representative-rpr/

Best wishes

Thank you, that's very useful information. I've sent the care worker an email asking about whether DoLS are in place or have been applied for. I've requested to be my mother's Relevant Person’s Representative.

I also said I wanted to look after my mother at home. In addition, I've left a phone message. Now that I have started the complaints process, I don't know if I'll receive a response from her. She had implied during a phone conversation last week, she wouldn't co-operate if I complained. My OnePlus 5 phone records all calls automatically, it's why I bought that phone. The complaint form landed on my doorstep on Saturday.

 

[nitram]

@EricJones
Care Home can grant an emergency DoLS whilst full DoLS is being set up

There are 2 types of DoLS authorisations: urgent and standard. Urgent DoLS authorisations can last up to 7 days and are initially granted by the hospital or care home where the person is being cared for, known as the ‘managing authority’. If needed, urgent authorisations can be extended for a further 7 days. This type of authorisation can be used if a person urgently needs to be deprived of their liberty before they have had a full assessment.

In all other circumstances, the managing authority should request a standard authorisation. The relevant local authority then has 21 days to carry out assessments to ensure that the deprivation of liberty is appropriate. Standard authorisations should be reviewed regularly and can last up to 12 months.

Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DoLS) - Care Quality Commission

www.cqc.org.uk

 

[EricJones]

@EricJones My mother-in-law was living with us but on a visit to her other son she suffered stoke and was admitted to hospital. Whilst there, she was admitted into a care home on a discharge to assess. Her social worker deemed her as without capacity and as no POA was in place deemed it in her best interests to live at the care home permanently. She came to this conclusions aft talking to my brother-in-law only. Neither I nor my partner were consulted. She was really upset and crying all the time describing it as a prison saying repeatedly that she did not want to be there and as care staff put it "trying to escape". Despite all of this, no DOLS was made. We tried to talk to the social worker about this, and had a meeting with her where she was completely intransigent. I made a formal complaint about her with one of the grounds being that she failed to make a proper assessment by speaking family members other than my brother-in-law. I also said in my complaint that I wanted a "best interests" meeting was held to decide what was best for my mother-in-law. The social worker was taken off the case as a result of the complaint and we were given a much more reasonable social worker and following a best interest meeting it was agreed that she could return to us at home. The outcome of the complaint was that there was an agreement that we should have been consulted about the decision to put her into a care home and we received an apology. Following this my brother-in-law got a bill for the time she was in the care home. I complained again about this and used the outcome of the original complaint to get them to withdraw the bill which they agreed to do.

Thank you for writing about your experience, it's brilliant you managed to get her home to be properly looked after. One's loved one begging to be taken home is upsetting, my mother's been begging me to take her home for 18 years. She asked me to take her home the other day. She hated the last care home, and she's very unhappy and constantly kept awake in her new one. It seems I have no choice but to follow through with the complaint to NHS Social Care about this care worker.

 

[EricJones]

I would say, it would be best for your mother if there was agreement on all sides about what was to happen to her. If she does not have a DOLS in place nor has been referred for a DOLS (they are meant to do this if you mother event says she doesnt want to be there ONCE) you can request community advocacy to have input on this (depends which County you are in as to what this is and often there are long waiting lists. In my very limited experience I dont really think care home comply with this and rely and people not knowing their rights. If you are unhappy about your mother's situation, I would recommend that you do put in a complaint. It will protect both your and your mother's interests and give the care home an opportunity to address those complaints.

I hope that this helps. Take care

Thank you, that does help. I didn't know about community advocacy. I'll look into this, because trying to communicate with this care worker has been very difficult. I've been more informed by the kind members of this forum within a few hours, than I ever have by her. She has never provided information voluntarily.

 

[EricJones]

@EricJones
Care Home can grant an emergency DoLS whilst full DoLS is being set up

There are 2 types of DoLS authorisations: urgent and standard. Urgent DoLS authorisations can last up to 7 days and are initially granted by the hospital or care home where the person is being cared for, known as the ‘managing authority’. If needed, urgent authorisations can be extended for a further 7 days. This type of authorisation can be used if a person urgently needs to be deprived of their liberty before they have had a full assessment.

In all other circumstances, the managing authority should request a standard authorisation. The relevant local authority then has 21 days to carry out assessments to ensure that the deprivation of liberty is appropriate. Standard authorisations should be reviewed regularly and can last up to 12 months.

Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DoLS) - Care Quality Commission

www.cqc.org.uk

Thank you for this information. It's all necessary to absorb, but I'm finding the matter quite bewildering to read about. I doubt I'll hear back from this Social Worker re: DoLS status. I will complete the complaint form. She talked about gardening for longer during one phone conversation, than she did about my mother's care!

 

[nitram]

I doubt I'll hear back from this Social Worker re: DoLS status.

Adult Safeguarding are the ones to ask for first hand definitive statement about DoLS and DoLS applications.

Try a google on adult safeguarding <name of council> to get contact info.

 

[EricJones]

Adult Safeguarding are the ones to ask for first hand definitive statement about DoLS and DoLS applications.

Try a google on adult safeguarding <name of council> to get contact info.

Thank you, the Adult Safeguarding phone line leads to an automated message telling me "There's no one to answer your call. Please try again later." I've sent them an email asking for information about the DoLS status of my mother, and will of course keep trying to contact them by phone.

 

[Scarlet Lady]

Hi, @EricJones. I’m sorry you’re dealing with such a distressing situation regarding your mother. You’ve received some excellent advice from the members of this forum regarding DOLS and the potential ramifications of removing your mother from her home. However, you’ve said that you are not sure that your mother has dementia and therefore I’m not sure that this website is the most appropriate one for you to consult, in that some of the legalities surrounding the care of people with dementia may not apply to those with other types of mental illness. Your family situation sounds very complicated, but it’s clear that your mother seems to have required medical and/ or social care intervention for many years: you said she’s been asking to go home for 18 years and has recently had a spell in a mental hospital. I accept that her current care home sounds very far from ideal, but I’m not sure why you think you would be able to cope with her at home, especially as you’ve admitted you don’t have full information on her medical records.
I‘m sorry to sound off-putting because I understand that you want to do the best for your mum and don’t want to see her unhappy. But I do believe you need to think this thing through in more depth.

 

[EricJones]

Council safeguarding enquires via email and phone turned up no information whatsover, but my mother's care home has informed me that DoLS is in place. Turns out, the CQC opened a case with the wrong Council Safeguarding team - not at the new care home's Council.

I wasn't consulted at any point about the selection of this awful care home they've botched her into. I'll complete my complaint and see if care services are willing to move her to a care home near me.

 

[Kevinl]

Probably someone on here could post a link to a site where you can read or download a copy of a DoLS form.
Version I'm looking at is the Department of Health Form 4,I believe that's the current one in UK England.
It covers either standard application or applications under Part 8 of Schedule A1 to the Mental Capacity Act 2005 depending on which box gets an X in it.
Both sides of 12 pages of A4 paper so 24 sides, closely typed in all, it's the version the hospital used. K