LPA Travel Expenses

Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
Hi everyone, I've joined this forum as my father, 90, has severe vascular dementia and is very frail. Myself and my brother have LPA for dad, but this has become problematic for a particular reason. I'll explain why and explain what I'm doing about it as I hope it will be of use to members. Likewise I will post the outcome when this has concluded. Here's the story:

Since my mother's death last year my brother and I have had LPA for our old, frail father. He has severe dementia, he lives in a care home and his health / condition have been declining rapidly since last year. I live Some distance from dad, it's at least a three hour trip one way, but I try to visit as frequently as I can for both personal reasons (of course) and to fulfill my duty of care under the mental capacity act 2005 - as dad's attorney I am acting in his best interest to ensure he is well cared for and to give him as much compassion, love and support as possible. The visits seem to cheer him up, especially when I take my daughter along. She adores him, he loves her and it's great to see him smile, even now.

So, after reviewing both the mental capacity act 2005 and the OPG guidance for attorneys, I thought it was reasonable to claim my travel expenses for my visits to my father as I am an artist about to go on working tax credit. The expenses are proportionate to my father's funds, which continue to grow net of expenses and his house's running costs; his care costs are paid for by the local health authority.

The annual cost of this ongoing expense is about £2,000, more than the £500 in the opg guideline, but the cost of travel, even when booked in advance, is steep and The journey is a real "planes, trains and automobiles". I also sometimes need to use a cheap rental car for one or two days when I visit as my knees and back are not in good shape and often painful. I stress I do not profit from this, it's just my travel costs.

I am also bearing in mind my late mother's wishes. She urged me, in writing and face to face, to take good care of him after her death and was quite frank face to face that the future cost of travel should not be an issue. When he was more lucid my father held the same view, one that I periodically rechecked in a neutral way. The 2005 Act and opg are both clear about respecting family member's values and wishes as well as my dad's capacity for decision making.

Here's the issue. My brother in his capacity as co-attorney disagrees with what I have been doing. His point of view is that it is wrong, constitutes "taking", potentially sets me up for legal problems down the line and is thoroughly against both the spirit and letter of the Act and the Guidance. His view is that LPA duties are purely financial and have no pastoral dimension. I am distraught at this as all I want to do is act in my father's best interest and in accordance with family member's wishes, those of my late mother and my dad when he was more lucid.

I am reviewing this with CAB soon, all booked up, so wanted to share what must be a real issue for those attorneys who live some distance from a family member and find it a financial burden to maintain frequent visits.

It would be brilliant if any of you out there have experience of this and can comment constructively on the topic.

This is really wearing me out, it's on my mind constantly.

Thanks all.
 

turbo

Registered User
Aug 1, 2007
3,852
0
Hello Wonderalley, I hope you don't mind me asking but how did you fund visits before your father had dementia.
I've been travelling long distance to see family for more than 35 years. My mum has been in a care home for 3.5 years and her house has been sold to pay fees. Because I have always paid for these visits I feel happier to still be paying. I have joint POA with my sister but we have never really discussed travel expenses. I agree travelling is expensive these days.
I hope the CAB are able to help.

turbo
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
I would have thought that the expenses referred to in the LPA are those involved with carrying out the duties of the LPA rather than those concerning more usual care and visiting a spose or parent.
As my husband's deputy, I make no claim for any expenses at all and, to be honest, it hasn't occurred to me to do so.
I know it must be difficult if you are finding the fares expensive, they do keep rising, I know. I hope you manage to keep visiting your father.

By the way, I see you are new to TP, so welcome and I hope you find help and support here.
 
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Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
Hi Turbo, thank you for responding. We only discovered he had dementia while mum was dying in May last year. The quiet man in the corner who didn't want to talk much turned out to have vascular dementia. Until my mother started dying, visits were once a quarter, so affordable for us, once she died they have been fortnightly as first dad was on his own at home and then in the care home from November.
 

Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
Hi Saffie thanks for responding. Where I'm at is that I was convinced that my duties were not only financial but also to act in his best interest by ensuring his care and surroundings were up to scratch, discussing his treatment and condition with nursing staff, as well as supporting him. If I have to find the money to do this, I will, although I don't want to get into debt.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
also to act in his best interest by ensuring his care and surroundings were up to scratch, discussing his treatment and condition with nursing staff, as well as supporting him.
Yes, that does make it sound a lot more reasonable, especially as you obviously have a long distance to travel for these far more frequent visits. I hope you can work something out with your brother.
 

Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
Yes, that does make it sound a lot more reasonable, especially as you obviously have a long distance to travel for these far more frequent visits. I hope you can work something out with your brother.

Thank you, I'm talking to Citizen's Advice tomorrow so hopefully it will be resolved promptly. I'll write a post regarding their decision in this thread.
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
I have EPA and I understood I could have reasonable expenses for fulfilling my role.

Before mum went into her first care home, when ever I visited mum, I "claimed" petrol expenses as it was over 170 miles round trip to visit her in her own home, and I would sometimes visit 2 times a week.

I worked out that if I used the reasonable petrol expenses of (I think) 0.50p a mile suggested by the tax office, I would be "claiming" more than the cost of a tank of petrol, so I only "charged" the cost of a tank of petrol.

When mum was in her own home, I only ever used my car to drive to visit her, as my husband does all the other driving in his car.

I used to deal with all her shopping, paying bills, taking her to doctors, for a trip out to where ever she wanted to go etc etc.

When she moved in to the care home, instead of claiming for each journey, I claimed for every other journey (similar distance as when mum was at home) but only because I had less "running around" to do for mum.

Since she is in her new care home, I only "claim" once a month. Usually when I need to go for a meeting with staff about "issues" concerning mum as I mum is uncomfortable leaving the care home, and I don't have her own home to deal with any more.

If I couldn't claim my petrol costs, I wouldn't have been able to fulfil my duties of EPA as I certainly couldn't afford the petrol costs.
 

Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
I have EPA and I understood I could have reasonable expenses for fulfilling my role.

Before mum went into her first care home, when ever I visited mum, I "claimed" petrol expenses as it was over 170 miles round trip to visit her in her own home, and I would sometimes visit 2 times a week.

I worked out that if I used the reasonable petrol expenses of (I think) 0.50p a mile suggested by the tax office, I would be "claiming" more than the cost of a tank of petrol, so I only "charged" the cost of a tank of petrol.

When mum was in her own home, I only ever used my car to drive to visit her, as my husband does all the other driving in his car.

I used to deal with all her shopping, paying bills, taking her to doctors, for a trip out to where ever she wanted to go etc etc.

When she moved in to the care home, instead of claiming for each journey, I claimed for every other journey (similar distance as when mum was at home) but only because I had less "running around" to do for mum.

Since she is in her new care home, I only "claim" once a month. Usually when I need to go for a meeting with staff about "issues" concerning mum as I mum is uncomfortable leaving the care home, and I don't have her own home to deal with any more.

If I couldn't claim my petrol costs, I wouldn't have been able to fulfil my duties of EPA as I certainly couldn't afford the petrol costs.

Hi 2Jays, thank you for sharing your experience and insight, it's much appreciated.
 

carpe diem

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
433
0
Bristol
H,i I'm in a similar position and live 200 miles away from my mum. It costs me £70 in fuel every time I visit so by your calculations I could visit her over 28 times a year to spend the £2000 you charge your dad. It is difficult caring from a far but I do organise most things on the phone and only visit every other month.
I don't have children and have always worked so money is not really a great issue for me so I would never charge mum, I also hope if she goes into a care home I will make it nearer to me.
I know 2 jays always charged her mum reasonable fuel costs, which I do think is fair.
But, if I understand correctly, utlimately it is the tax payer who is going for leisure outings to visit your dad as they will pay his care costs when money runs out. If the OPG accept these costs where will it end...... need a new car to visit dad.....compensation for loss of earnings.
If you didn't have POA you wouldn't be able to take this money.
It is a very grey area and I would listen to your brother.
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,541
0
It is my understanding and I am no expert at all here, is that if you are claiming travel expenses the purpose of the journey has to be in that person's interest. So if I were visiting Mum as a daughter visits to see her and check her progress, then no I can't claim. However, if she calls as she needs a new nighty, money bringing in or the journey is for her needs then I can.

It's a very grey area and one to definitely get expert advice on.
 

Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
H,i I'm in a similar position and live 200 miles away from my mum. It costs me £70 in fuel every time I visit so by your calculations I could visit her over 28 times a year to spend the £2000 you charge your dad. It is difficult caring from a far but I do organise most things on the phone and only visit every other month.
I don't have children and have always worked so money is not really a great issue for me so I would never charge mum, I also hope if she goes into a care home I will make it nearer to me.
I know 2 jays always charged her mum reasonable fuel costs, which I do think is fair.
But, if I understand correctly, utlimately it is the tax payer who is going for leisure outings to visit your dad as they will pay his care costs when money runs out. If the OPG accept these costs where will it end...... need a new car to visit dad.....compensation for loss of earnings.
If you didn't have POA you wouldn't be able to take this money.
It is a very grey area and I would listen to your brother.

Thanks for replying. Our circumstances seem to be very different. I can't comment on new earrings.

2Jays and I are in very similar situations in that we claim the cost of our travel. The reason I have POA is because my father is vulnerable; if he wasn't vulnerable I wouldn't need to see him every 2 weeks to assess his care, support him, do his paperwork, take care of his house etc so on that score it's moot, I wouldn't need to claim.

I don't think it's grey at all - the guidelines are open to interpretation and clarifying advice is available out there.
 

Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
Hi all. I discussed my issue today with Citizens Advice, Action on Elder Abuse and the OPG. Clearly the OPG carries the most weight as it regulates LPA.

All three organisations agreed that is was reasonable to claim travel expenses for my visits as they involve reviewing Dad's worsening condition and discussing it with clinical staff, keeping a watchful eye on the care home and dad's room, checking and doing upkeep on his house, doing his post and admin etc. as long as the travel expenses are directly related to my visits, are proportionate to dad's assets and are not a fee for my time.

Having LPA is not supposed to be a burden for Attorneys, especially if you live some distance from the Donor. Likewise, having LPA is not just about counting the beans, it's really about the Donor's well being and acting in their Best Interest to help achieve it. It is clearly a personal choice as to whether you wish to claim travel. The OPG sets a guide limit of £500 per annum; for those of us who travel far and frequently and exceed this amount we need to keep accurate records with dates and receipts (I suggest also keeping a diary of what you did on each visit) and always make sure the costs are proportionate to the Donor's assets.

Everyone's situation is different and the combined size of the 2005 mental capacity act and opg guidance runs to about 350 pages, so no wonder it's confusing. I suggest that if you feel the need to claim, first look at travel costs versus assets, think about what you do on the visits and then take free advice from places like the OPG.

I'll be posting a few more updates as this progresses. Thanks all.
 

nicoise

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
1,806
0
Dear Wonder Alley

You mention that your father has a house, so I am assuming that he is both self funding, and has a reasonable amount of assets behind him so that the issue of LA funding is not going to arise in the near future?

I can see both sides of your argument, and your brother's concern that this might be going against the OPG's guidelines. But if your father can afford it, and there is no-one else to visit him every two weeks to carry out these overseeing tasks, and you keep a record of your visits and costs then there shouldn't be a big problem.... What is your brother's solution to this problem?

Ps I think Carpe Diem wrote of earnings, not earrings.

I see our posts have crossed - I'm glad you have an answer; I hope your brother is willing to compromise with you and not become over-concerned with bean-counting!
 
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Wonder alley

Registered User
Sep 23, 2013
8
0
Sussex
Dear Wonder Alley

You mention that your father has a house, so I am assuming that he is both self funding, and has a reasonable amount of assets behind him so that the issue of LA funding is not going to arise in the near future?

I can see both sides of your argument, and your brother's concern that this might be going against the OPG's guidelines. But if your father can afford it, and there is no-one else to visit him every two weeks to carry out these overseeing tasks, and you keep a record of your visits and costs then there shouldn't be a big problem.... What is your brother's solution to this problem?

Ps I think Carpe Diem wrote of earnings, not earrings.

I see our posts have crossed - I'm glad you have an answer; I hope your brother is willing to compromise with you and not become over-concerned with bean-counting!

Hello there, yes I think we have crossed over. I am meeting my brother tomorrow to straighten this out. Watch this space.
 

lilac lady

New member
Apr 2, 2024
1
0
Hello Wonderalley, I hope you don't mind me asking but how did you fund visits before your father had dementia.
I've been travelling long distance to see family for more than 35 years. My mum has been in a care home for 3.5 years and her house has been sold to pay fees. Because I have always paid for these visits I feel happier to still be paying. I have joint POA with my sister but we have never really discussed travel expenses. I agree travelling is expensive these days.
I hope the CAB are able to help.

turbo
Dear wo nder alley I have the same problem I don't feel right taking money for travelling expenses but my husband insists I pay the petrol and accomodation when we travel to see my relative it is 500 miles distance
 

Louise7

Volunteer Host
Mar 25, 2016
4,825
0
Hello @lilac lady and welcome to the Dementia Support Forum, which is a supportive place with a lot of shared experience. This is a very old thread so you may not receive a response from Wonder alley, and I don't have personal experience of LPA travelling expenses, but others here may have more recent experience of this and be able to comment.

It sounds like due to the distance you are travelling to visit your relative the petrol and accommodation costs you will be paying will be fairly high, depending on how often you visit, so it's understandable that your husband feels that payment may be appropriate. However, the information posted in this thread is over 10 years old now, and the OPG guidance/guide limit is likely to have been updated, so if in doubt about whether you are doing the right thing in terms of claiming travel and accommodation costs relating to your LPA role the OPG will be able to clarify things for you and your husband. Their contact details are here:

Contact OPG​

Office address​

PO Box 16185
Birmingham
B2 2WH
United Kingdom
Email
customerservices@publicguardian.gov.uk
Telephone
0300 456 0300
Textphone
0115 934 2778
Fax
0870 739 5780
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday 9am to 5pm
Wednesday 10am to 5pm
 

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