What happens when the money runs out for a self funder in a carehome ??

Discussion in 'Middle - later stages of dementia' started by snoggy1one, Feb 19, 2015.

  1. snoggy1one

    snoggy1one Registered User

    Jun 4, 2012
    Just wondering if anyone can tell me what happens to a self funding person who has had to sell their home to fund living in a care home. My mum is about to sell her home and I am just hoping that when the money runs out that she can remain in the same care home as it is familiar to her and that the council would pay the fees????. Is there a certain amount of money that a council would pay and a limit for it etc ?? or would we have to look at a cheaper care home? I am really worried.

    I just want to know if mum is safe as I am sure another move would really confuse her.

    Thanks for any response. xx
  2. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    North Manchester
    #2 nitram, Feb 19, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
    If your mum's assets approach the upper limit the LA will start to contribute to her fees, up to April 2016 the upper limit is £23250, after that date it will be £27000, even if she is receiving funding the limit will increase to £27000 on April 2016.

    In April 2016 all fees already paid and funds received will be disregarded and the Care Act 2014 will largely supersede the current regulations (CRAG).

    These >>>FACTSHEETS<<< outline the main point in the Act, sheets 5 and 6 cover some of the financial points.

    As regarding having to move care home there is always an argument that doing so would be disturbing and not in her best interests, also from April 2016 first party top ups will be allowed so she could pay them out of assets below the lower limit.

    The Act also places limits on the annual 'hotel' fee and lifetime 'care fee' but these amounts are calculated on the LA estimate of the costs and not that actually charged by the home.
  3. MeganCat

    MeganCat Registered User

    Jan 29, 2013
    South Wales
    My understanding is that there is a limit which the council will pay. You can ask them what that is - it varies I think, but isn't near any fees for self funders!!
    The care home may accept that amount at that point or they may not and then either you could be asked to top up the difference or you may have to move homes. I struggled with this for a long while as obviously I would prefer there not to be a move, and so should I go for somewhere cheaper so the money lasts longer? And how long is she likely to survive - as progression is a certainty? How long is the piece of string I tied myself up in knots with?? :confused:
    In the end I decided to go for the home that best suited her at that point in time, that had lots of activities and stimulation and gave her the best quality of life while she was able to enjoy it.
    I lost lots of sleep! But I dont have any regrets (still worry a little - but that's me!)
  4. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    There is also a possibility that she might qualify for continuing health care and not have to pay at all. There is just no telling so get her the best care home now and cross the bridge when you come to it.
  5. wobbly

    wobbly Registered User

    Feb 14, 2012
    Mid Wales
    and we found out that there are carehomes which will not accept people fully funded by the council/social services, I suppose in that instance if someone had iniatially gone into a home like that they could ask the person to be moved when the money ran out?? not sure....my Dad is fully funded so there were a few homes near me that would not take him for this r eason....
  6. DivingDavey

    DivingDavey Registered User

    Feb 18, 2015
    This is also a big worry for me... My mother is in a residential care home, currently self funding. She is 73, and otherwise in fair health - she may live another 20 years or more. She is barely able to walk (and when she does it's a few steps with carers and a frame), she is incontinent and anzxious in new surroundings.

    The home she is in is not expensive compared to all the others I saw, and cheap compared to most of them but the care there is fantastic and I don't ever want her to move. It's also quite convenient for me to visit her which is important too.

    I understand that the council will pay a "maximum" figure of (in her case) around £450 per week which is nowhere near the fees charged by any of the homes I saw. That "maximum" however is largely made up by a persons pension and any other incomes so it leaves them with nothing to pay any top up with.

    While I am not averse to paying towards her care when her funding runs out I am worried that it will simply not be possible, the weekely top up would currently be around £100 per week which I just can't afford for any period of time, plus of course I have provisions to make for my own future (sorry if that sounds selfish).
  7. PeggySmith

    PeggySmith Registered User

    Apr 16, 2012
    I asked the CH before MIL moved in and they reassured me that MIL wouldn't be made to leave if her money ran out. Someone posted on here a while ago that the CH her parent was in would keep them at LA rate if the money ran out after 2+ years. Stuck in my head as it seemed a bit odd.
  8. Pickles53

    Pickles53 Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    Radcliffe on Trent
    #8 Pickles53, Mar 10, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
    That was the deal where my mother was, but it was 3 years (by which time she would have paid £120k+). That was one reason we chose the home we did, because it was reassuring to know that she would never have to move for financial reasons. We only had her for a few more months so never had the chance to find out if they were true to their word.
  9. jax2015

    jax2015 Registered User

    Feb 8, 2015
    loo poo

    My mom as been in the home for three months now,she never remembers where the door is or the toilet.
    when i got to see her today she had done a motion on the bed used paper towels to clean it up and left it there with her pants, in the draw she had a box with more paper towels in and i dont know what.
    then she said she wants the loo she went in then i could hear her riping the paper towels out of the dispenser,she did not take her trousers down and it was clear she forgot how to use the loo,is this late stage I HAVE TO ASK ?
  10. Witzend

    Witzend Registered User

    Aug 29, 2007
    SW London
    Not sure, but I don't think a person necessarily has to be late stage to forget how to use the loo. My mother is late stage, but it was a few years ago that she forgot. She had to be taken - she could not even remember how to sit on the loo - she had to be guided. More than once, if I said, 'Now let's wash your hands,' she would try to put them under the loo flush!!! It was around the same time that she forgot how to get in and out of a car - just did not know what to do with her arms and legs - which meant I could no longer take her out.
  11. Raggedrobin

    Raggedrobin Registered User

    Jan 20, 2014
    Jax, you really need to discuss this with the home. As Witzend says, a person who forgets where or how to go needs to be 'toileted' - that means guided to the loo and watched to make sure they have pants down, are sitting down, and may need wiping or washing hands prompts etc. Doing this drill also helps the person realise where the loo is, as does keeping the door to it open. Sometimes if a door is closed a person simply doesn't see that it is a door. It must have been distressing for both of you that she poo-ed on the bed but there is help.

    Re the original question, I was self funding and am now asking for council help as Mum is under the £23k mark now. I have offered to pay a top up, but not as much as they want to meet the big difference between the council's standard amount and what the care home charges. As part of the process, they put Mum's care 'out to tender' and another care home has offered to take her for less than the cost of her current one.

    However I will argue, very strongly, that she cannot be moved at 97. Councils do have the flexibility to pay higher fees if they think it is appropriate to maintain someone in a more expensive home and they can also try negotiating with the home for a reduced fee, plus negotiating with relatives over top up fees. So there is flexibility but you will have to jump through quite a few stressful hoops plus put forward a good case for why your Mum shouldn't be moved. Interestingly someone at the home told me this year is quite a good one for negotiating fees as there were so many winter flu deaths that most of them have more vacancies than usual, so off the record the homes themselves may be more willing to negotiate in that situation.

    I do feel for you, it is a worry but it isn't set in stone, a lot depends on the state of the resident at the time they cease self funding.
  12. everdrew89

    everdrew89 Registered User

    Nov 21, 2012
    Re the original question about running out of money, I agree that the first stop would be to share your worry with the care home and see what their line is. Then check out anything they say with other bodies like "Paying for Care" (I think they have a helpline?) and the Relatives and Residents Association etc. The new Care Act is coming in with very new rules and a lot of people don't understand how it will work in practice because they are not dealing with it yet.
  13. everdrew89

    everdrew89 Registered User

    Nov 21, 2012
    Just wanted to say i) please don't say sorry and ii) that doesn't sound selfish. It sounds like you need to look after yourself, which you do. And we all do. And a lot of carers are not very good at doing it.
  14. WIFE

    WIFE Registered User

    May 23, 2014
    My husband's Nursing Home told me when he was admitted that after two year's residence they would accept a weekly rate of whatever the local Council was agreeing to pay at that date - which obviously would be less than the Nursing Home's "going rate" for the room. Sadly this never arose as he died in January but it might be worth your while to approach the Care Home and ascertain what their policy is on this subject. Good luck.

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