what happens when self funding finances run out?
- Thread starter JC51
- Start date
Once you get down to about £25, 000 (I cant remember the exact amount) SS will assess the situation and will start paying towards the fees. Once you are down to about £14,000 the LA will be paying their maximum amount.
The only problem would be if the care home doesnt accept the LA fee and they want a "top-up" fee from the relatives. This can get very expensive and the person in the care home may have to move. Sometimes you can bargain with the care home, but this becoming harder to do. The LA is duty bound to provide at least one care home that will meet their needs and will accept the LA rate.
@JC51 - I agree that the system is awful, but the cheaper places are not necessarily dreadful. The care home that mum was in said that if mum was self-funded for 2 years then when her funding ran out they would accept the LA rate. It wasnt a swish place - it was a bit shabby and old fashioned, but clean, homely and the care was wonderful.
Many of the "nice" places use the fees to fund things like up-market decor, cafes, spas, a cinema room and a bar. Mum would not have used any of these and didnt care about the decor. What she wanted was a home, not a hotel. When I was looking at care homes some of them were amazing, complete with floor pot plants (just begging to be weed into!), but they were designed for the "discerning relative" and to look good in the brochure, not for the person with dementia.
More is not always better.
Many of the "nice" places use the fees to fund things like up-market decor, cafes, spas, a cinema room and a bar. Mum would not have used any of these and didnt care about the decor. What she wanted was a home, not a hotel. When I was looking at care homes some of them were amazing, complete with floor pot plants (just begging to be weed into!), but they were designed for the "discerning relative" and to look good in the brochure, not for the person with dementia.
More is not always better.
its what you call window dressing. strip all the fancy stuff away see whats underneath the surface. i went to a posh one for an interview and strip it back and really had priorities all wrong. they would have themed days and if you had dementia, you wouldnt have got that much out of it. the one i worked in was as @canary described and they were well trained, and put residents as a focus, what their needs were and they described it as their home. that was LA funded.
I agree with @canary and @jennifer1967 . I've only looked at places for respite, rather than permanent care, but, quite often, it's clear that a lot of effort has gone into impressing visiting relatives and friends. That's not to say that these places don't provide good care, but it is easy to be swayed by appearance.
My neighbour recently told me of her 2 grandmothers. One lived life to the full and spent every penny she ever had. The other was always prudent, and provided well for her latter years. Both ended up in the same care home - one funded by the state, one from her own savings!
My neighbour recently told me of her 2 grandmothers. One lived life to the full and spent every penny she ever had. The other was always prudent, and provided well for her latter years. Both ended up in the same care home - one funded by the state, one from her own savings!
Thank canary, Jennifer1967 and lollyc. I hadn’t thought of it like that, and you are right a lot of the brochures etc look brilliant, but most of the pretty stuff would go unnoticed by someone with dementia. Does anyone know if there are care homes specifically for PWD only, seems like an idea, then all the spa’s, cinema rooms, fancy decor etc would be unnecessary, and maybe fee’s less daunting.
Oh yes, @JC51 , the one mum was in was only for people with dementia. Often they are called EMI homes.
Ones that are mixed dementia and non-dementia residents usually have staff that are not so well trained/experienced in dementia, so although it can work well in the early stages, often the person with dementia gets to a certain stage and then the home cannot cope with the behaviour and will ask them to leave.
Some homes have different units for people in the early stages of dementia and those without dementia and then a different one for people with dementia only, so that they can be moved more easily once the dementia advances.
There are pros and cons for all these different approaches.
Ones that are mixed dementia and non-dementia residents usually have staff that are not so well trained/experienced in dementia, so although it can work well in the early stages, often the person with dementia gets to a certain stage and then the home cannot cope with the behaviour and will ask them to leave.
Some homes have different units for people in the early stages of dementia and those without dementia and then a different one for people with dementia only, so that they can be moved more easily once the dementia advances.
There are pros and cons for all these different approaches.
Oh, it's much worse than that! Some homes take both self-funded and council-funded residents, but guess what? The self-funded people pay more. Where my mum was, they took both and she was paying more than £200 per week more than the council-funded resident in the identical room next door. I'm told that this is because the rate paid by the council is not enough so the home charges extra to self-funded residents to subsidise the cost of the council funded ones.
That meant that my mother, who had worked, paid tax and saved all her life, was not only paying for all her own care, she was also subsidising the care of others. How unfair is that? So over £150,000 in care costs over 3 years.
Am I bitter? Frankly, yes.
The system needs reform, because it is unfair and unjust in many ways and widens the inequalities in health gap, not forgetting dementia is a disease off loaded to the realm of social care
I agree that the lovely decor etc is aimed at the families and really doesn't mean much to most of the residents.
I think what is important is how long the staff have been there. I would ask various staff how long they have worked there. If there is a lot of staff turnover, I would be inclined to look elsewhere. Unhappy staff is not a good thing in long term care.
I think what is important is how long the staff have been there. I would ask various staff how long they have worked there. If there is a lot of staff turnover, I would be inclined to look elsewhere. Unhappy staff is not a good thing in long term care.
Yes it's extremely unfair. I understand that if I have enough money I should pay towards my care but I see no reason why I should pay extra towards the costs of the person sitting next to me! Those costs should be paid by the country as a whole through the tax system. This government, just as the previous governments, have promised to solve the problems of paying for care but no news yet. Too late for my Mum who died in November.
Susan
My dad was self-funding and he is now funded by the LA, so he's had both sides of this in his home. I think the difference is about £200 a month though, not per week. I like to think he's averaging it out! Can't say he paid tax and saved though, if he had he would have saved me a lot of trouble sorting out HMRC and all his debts... seriously though @JC51 I've had some experience with going from self to LA funding. I would say by all means look at the ratings on the homes but don't dismiss ones which are just 'good' - dad's home is excellent and they only got a 'good' on the last report. I am also a fan of the smaller home if it's possible, just because it feels more like a family home than a hospital or other institution.
I knew one of the homes that I looked at was wrong for my wife when I was asked if she would need a standard room or a luxury one. The difference appeared to be in the size of the television (that she would not be able to operate) and the number of lights that came on when the wardrobe doors were opened. The home was very popular with moneyed and (as they thought) discerning relatives who wanted 'the best' amenities rather than really good person-centred care. It was especially popular with visitors on race days due to its balcony overlooking Newcastle racecourse. There seemed to be little focus on the residents' real needs.
Another place had some of the pots to be used for the wrong purposes as described above, as well as a 'tuck shop' with honesty box. My wife would have enjoyed bursting open and trampling on bags of crisps or being served alcohol at the free bar. We were allowed to speak to a 'marketing representative' but not the care staff.
Both places prided themselves that they were like hotels. My wife's self-funding moneys would have run out much quicker due to the inflated prices for things that she couldn't possibly use or need. The downside of this would have been that there was a monthly shortfall of several hundred pounds between what the Local Authority would pay and what these homes charged. Top ups would have been required.
The home where my wife has settled and seems content is a far less posh place. It is clean, domestic in scale and feel and has carried out a range of improvements over time. Most importantly, it focuses on and tries to meet what each individual resident needs. The staff member who I talked to and who showed me around impressed me with her knowledge and compassion as she described with genuine pride the care that the home provides. She has since become the manager but remains closely involved with residents. The home is small and friendly and I have got to know all the staff and most of the residents. Some of the staff have been there many years and there are even 2 generations of the same families working there.
The home accepts the Local Authority rate. After 18 months of self-funding my wife's money was approaching the threshold of £23,250. I asked for a financial assessment and we moved seamlessly to the current situation in which my wife makes a monthly contribution with the remaining, larger part met by the Local Authority. The system is unfair and inequitable but I'm afraid that we have to work with it to get the best care for those we love.
Another place had some of the pots to be used for the wrong purposes as described above, as well as a 'tuck shop' with honesty box. My wife would have enjoyed bursting open and trampling on bags of crisps or being served alcohol at the free bar. We were allowed to speak to a 'marketing representative' but not the care staff.
Both places prided themselves that they were like hotels. My wife's self-funding moneys would have run out much quicker due to the inflated prices for things that she couldn't possibly use or need. The downside of this would have been that there was a monthly shortfall of several hundred pounds between what the Local Authority would pay and what these homes charged. Top ups would have been required.
The home where my wife has settled and seems content is a far less posh place. It is clean, domestic in scale and feel and has carried out a range of improvements over time. Most importantly, it focuses on and tries to meet what each individual resident needs. The staff member who I talked to and who showed me around impressed me with her knowledge and compassion as she described with genuine pride the care that the home provides. She has since become the manager but remains closely involved with residents. The home is small and friendly and I have got to know all the staff and most of the residents. Some of the staff have been there many years and there are even 2 generations of the same families working there.
The home accepts the Local Authority rate. After 18 months of self-funding my wife's money was approaching the threshold of £23,250. I asked for a financial assessment and we moved seamlessly to the current situation in which my wife makes a monthly contribution with the remaining, larger part met by the Local Authority. The system is unfair and inequitable but I'm afraid that we have to work with it to get the best care for those we love.
I like your reply @northumbrian_k.
Last year I thought my mum may need to go into respite while OH was in hospital. There is a superb, many bedded NH at the end of our road, overlooking the sea, and I thought, perfect, close to home. I had a look round, saw the in-house pub, hotel style menu and all the other wonderful facilities advertised. Lovely for a week away for OH and I, but not for a 90 year old with Alzheimer's, it felt chilly and institutionalised.
We are on our knees after a dreadful year and planning the first respite break for mum to give OH and I time together.
I, (pre-pandemic) used to deliver library books to a small care home, again not too far to walk to. As soon as you're inside, there's always a lovely smell of lunch cooking. Up until now I've dismissed it for mum as it's a bit on the shabby side, only thirteen residents, but it's clean, homely and the staff are friendly.
After reading so many replies, I'm starting to think this could be the place for mum.
I have a worry though, which sounds daft.
There aren't many ground floor rooms and a stair lift is used to get residents upstairs. There's no way mum could operate the lift, she would be bought downstairs every day wouldn't she?
Last year I thought my mum may need to go into respite while OH was in hospital. There is a superb, many bedded NH at the end of our road, overlooking the sea, and I thought, perfect, close to home. I had a look round, saw the in-house pub, hotel style menu and all the other wonderful facilities advertised. Lovely for a week away for OH and I, but not for a 90 year old with Alzheimer's, it felt chilly and institutionalised.
We are on our knees after a dreadful year and planning the first respite break for mum to give OH and I time together.
I, (pre-pandemic) used to deliver library books to a small care home, again not too far to walk to. As soon as you're inside, there's always a lovely smell of lunch cooking. Up until now I've dismissed it for mum as it's a bit on the shabby side, only thirteen residents, but it's clean, homely and the staff are friendly.
After reading so many replies, I'm starting to think this could be the place for mum.
I have a worry though, which sounds daft.
There aren't many ground floor rooms and a stair lift is used to get residents upstairs. There's no way mum could operate the lift, she would be bought downstairs every day wouldn't she?
We only have joint accounts, current and savings. So does "my wife's money " mean half of what is in them? If so she would be almost at the threshold.
It's good to get all the very informative answers as sometime in the near future it's what I will be having to sort out.
It's good to get all the very informative answers as sometime in the near future it's what I will be having to sort out.
Yes, thats exactly right.
If you are gtting to the stage where paying for care is on the cards then its best to seperate the finances, otherwise they will always be looking at 50% of the accounts. This means that you would be paying 50% of the care costs, when it should be coming completely from her assets.
If its only going to be a few weeks its best to contact Social Services right at the start so that they can process the finances right at the beginning.
If shes only just over the threshold is there a justifiable expense that you could pay now? For example, you might purchase a funeral plan (the sort where you pay the lot up front, rather than the sort where you pay a small amount each week and is more like insurance)
If shes only just over the threshold is there a justifiable expense that you could pay now? For example, you might purchase a funeral plan (the sort where you pay the lot up front, rather than the sort where you pay a small amount each week and is more like insurance)
